4e brought us an era of feeding all sorts of classic features to the woodchipper as supposedly "quaint outdated concepts". Just last week, someone pointed out a post in meals' blog about how he confessed ignorance at why Wandering Monsters were there, then came up with (equivalent) logic for putting them back in:

http://kotgl.blogspot.com/2008/08/in-praise-of-wandering-monsters.html

Now, I've just been directed to another of his blog entries about "making powerful monsters important in non-combat situations again":

http://kotgl.blogspot.com/2008/10/skill-challenges-as-tool-for-putting.html

Say wha? There was a big flameout on ENWorld about how powerful monsters like Pit Fiends were SO MUCH BETTER now that they have nice trim little stat blocks that never make you crack open the PHB, and those simulation fans and "there's more to D&D than combat" mantra-speakers were poo-pooed for suggesting there was anything wrong with that. And yet NOW we have some concern about how players might face such creatures in non-combat situations?

I don't get it. Either Mearls isn't as influential in the 4e design as I imagined, or he's having a bit of regret in hindsight that there just might have been some healthy tissue in the mound of game-flesh they hewed away during their steadfast vivisection of the game.

Quote from: articleHere's a stray thought about skill challenges. Back in the 1e days, you'd hear all sorts of stories about dungeons where Orcus and Tiamat stomped around on level 1. Meeting those monsters is, obviously, instant death.

The fuck?

IMHO, these suggestions by Mearls are just lame.  

Wandering Monsters:  
Adding random wandering monsters while a group is resting to restore Healing Surges, Encounter Powers, and possibly other Powers will more than likely spell doom for that group.  Wandering monster are a random element, and not part of the balance of play concepts outlined in the 4e mechanics.

Powerful monsters on level 1:
Umm, what Stormbringer said.  What asswipe DM would have a party run into Orcus or Tiamat in a level 1 dungeon?  That is just so WTF?

His not understanding why wandering monsters were in the game in the first place provided my major WTF moment reading these.  Orcus/Tiamat on Level 1 is just icing on the fuckupped-ness cake.

First they justify cutting it so it's not in the first book they sell you.  They tell you "No, the book is fine."

Then after you bought the book, they say "Oh wait, we were wrong, we should have kept all that stuff.  Here, we'll put it a new book."

Ka-Ching.

Yup, the concept of multiple Player's Handbooks is still hard for me to swallow, and that's not even considering the money issue.

Reasons 353, and 354 why the 4e minatures games can take a flying leap in my opinion.:muttering:

Of course they're taking stuff out to put it back in. That's how you sell books upon books upon books.

I really don't think that a blog post a couple paragraphs long constitutes "putting something back in".

So Mearls idea of certain playstyles is a little flawed. At least he threw something out there, even if it was more of an afterthought than anything else.

Besides, the posed solution blows and I doubt you'll see it in any official WotC product.

Quote from: Drohem;261897Umm, what Stormbringer said.  What asswipe DM would have a party run into Orcus or Tiamat in a level 1 dungeon?  That is just so WTF?

I've done something like that. The large room at the end of the first level of a small dungeon had (an illusion of) a coven of powerful magic-users summoning Demogorgon. The Illusionist who used level two as a headquarters set it up. It had the desired effect. Intruders fled and did not come back. Unfortunately, he was a lazy fellow and who just reset the same illusion every time it was triggered. Eventually the players heard about other parties encountering the exact same scene they had -- including apparently the exact same people as recent sacrifices -- and got suspicious.

I've had other (real) way too powerful monsters roaming the upper levels of dungeons -- but parties were not intended to fight these monsters. They were to bargain with them, run from them, or the like. The idea that every monster encountered should be one the characters have a fair chance of beating if the players choose to fight it simply never caught on with my groups. If you are first level and decide to make a frontal attack on a vampire just because you encountered him, you deserve the death you have earned.

Quote from: RandallS;261932I've done something like that. The large room at the end of the first level of a small dungeon had (an illusion of) a coven of powerful magic-users summoning Demogorgon. The Illusionist who used level two as a headquarters set it up. It had the desired effect. Intruders fled and did not come back. Unfortunately, he was a lazy fellow and who just reset the same illusion every time it was triggered. Eventually the players heard about other parties encountering the exact same scene they had -- including apparently the exact same people as recent sacrifices -- and got suspicious.

I've had other (real) way too powerful monsters roaming the upper levels of dungeons -- but parties were not intended to fight these monsters. They were to bargain with them, run from them, or the like. The idea that every monster encountered should be one the characters have a fair chance of beating if the players choose to fight it simply never caught on with my groups. If you are first level and decide to make a frontal attack on a vampire just because you encountered him, you deserve the death you have earned.

I like the illusion gag!  

I also feel the same way about characters meeting creatures that are too powerful.

However, it was written as Orcus and Tiamat themselves were encountered.  This is just too stupid to consider.  Now, an illusion of Orcus or Tiamat is sheer genius; especially since the group discovered the ruse and that they were duped.

We bumped into Tiamat on our first Astral plane jaunt in ad&d way back in the day. We were 9th level, mind you. We still got duffed and imprisoned. Luckily my MU got, erm...stranded on the Astral plane instead of being taken away. Met up with a Titan who agreed to help me hatch an escape plan. One of the best unplanned sessions ever. One tip - never smack a slave overseer in the head with a shovel unless you're totally sure it isn't a polymorphed Blue Dragon.

Not 1st level, though.

Things like this is why I'm sticking to RPGs that give you a complete product upon release in one solid book.  I like to buy supplements to add to my game, not to complete my game.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;261938I like to buy supplements to add to my game, not to complete my game.

QTMFT!

Quote from: StormBringer;261892The fuck?

Heh.

I don't remember the level our characters were at, but I remember back in Junior High, a erstwhile DM obviously just paging through the MM and picking out whatever looked cool uttered a phrase that will live forever in my memory:

"You encounter a Demogorgon."