Jesus fuck, have you heard about how they're handling skills in 4e??! Utterly fucking artificial bullshit. "Skill challenges" where you have to get a certain number of successes versus a certain number of failures; DCs for "skill challenges" being set for the encounter, not the difficulty of what's being attempted; people scrambling to use any stupid fucking skill they can come up with and vaguely associate it to the challenge just to rack up successes?!! WTF is this shit??

RPGPundit

What, what?

Can we have a link?

There are threads about it on ENWorld and on the D20 ghetto in RPG.net.

Here's the original quote:

QuoteIt's a simple guideline for structuring a non-combat scene, meant to be a help in deciding when to begin rolling and when to end. It is also a prompt to help communicate to the players 'be creative, come up with unusual action and ideas to put your strongest skills into use'. I myself found it extremely useful.

Ultimately it would depend on your DMing style, I guess. If you are experienced as a DM, if you have no trouble with identifying interesting conflicts of skill, setting a good pace and knowing when to move on so the game doesn't drag and people get bored, if your players are proactive enough that they have no problems knowing where to go and what to do and all agree on what to do as a team in a timely manner, then the system is going to seem of little value, but then again a DM with skills and a group like that, doesn't really need a skills challenge system, they can do just fine with 'what do you do?' and adlibbing.

Myself and my players were very much NOT one of these groups; we have always had major problems with players not knowing what to do when there wasn't a fight going on, or fixating on a scene and becoming convinced that there's some secret there when there wasn't any, I had problems with having them roll and roll for trivial stuff that had no importance and made no difference, we would often get 'what now?' moments and boredom, etc, etc, etc.

Since I adopted the 4e skill-list and skill-challenge system (or my own interpretation of it) in our 3.5 games, the difference has been dramatic. We have none of our old problems, and we have way too much fun on non-combats... so much so that I've recently been toying with the idea of having entirely non-combat game sessions every now and again

To illustrate, here is one encounter we've played through where the rolls went particularly well: The characters are travelling through a forest and come upon a large tree. There's a dead, naked man hanged on the tree. I announce a challenge with a general skill DC of 18 (I don't say how long the challenge is, but it's 6/4).

The rogue decides to walk up to the corpse and inspect it with Perception. He wins the roll and notices that theres a dry red line of blood going from the corpses throat to his groin, like he was sliced completely open then put back together. The wizard uses his Insight to try to understand what this means, and fails. The Ranger uses his Athletics to climb up the tree without disturbing the corpse, and wagers a Hard roll on it. We wins the hard roll and I offer him a second success with another skill, he chooses Nature to inspect the tree itself and I describe the tree's dryad being pleased with him and making herself visible to the party from the branches of the tree. Meanwhile, there's a discussion amongst the players which results in the Samurai trying his History skill to see if he has any knowledge of any historic battles where people were hung from trees after being sliced in half and re-closed and why someone would do something like that; he wins the roll and remembers tales of honorless dogs of war who would hide balloons of poison gas inside corpses and make traps out of them which would trigger on touch.

We cycle back to the rogue, who tries to climb the tree as well and fails. This makes 2 fails, but they need 4 to fail the challenge and set off the trap, so I describe him falling and just narrowly avoiding hitting the corpse, and it swaying dangerously and the top of the cut splitting just a little bit. Everyone gulps. The wizard tries diplomacy on the dryad and asks what she knows of this corpse and why it's there. He wins, and dryad tells him she doesn't know why the corpse is, but that she's sure a black satyr (enemy of hers) has set it up there while she slept in hopes of someone triggering it and killing her tree. The ranger tries a Hard thievery check to secure the corpse and cut the rope, which he wins.

The party now has the 6 wins, so they've won the challenge, but I say nothing and I let it play out. The Samurai rolls athletics to catch the corpse gently and makes it (but it wouldn't have burst anyways since the challenge was won), then the rogue describes burying it so that it won't hurt anything else, which I tell him he doesn't need to roll, they have won the challenge, they clap and cheer a little bit, and the dryad thanks them and gives them some advice and the traditional wooden magic item that dryads always give as rewards

All this happens in the space of 20 minutes, with everybody on the edge of their seats and engaged in what's going on, noone wandering off to do something else, no boredom, no 'huh?' moments, no 'dead air', and ends up really satisfying and fun for them and me. Now, is doing this possible without any challenge system? Sure why, not. If you can do it, that's great. Would it have been possible for us to pull off this well without the system? I know myself and my players well enough to say not in a million years So that's why the system is great for me. Sorry for the too-long post, btw, I'm just a bit excited about it.

RPGPundit

Sounds like the old Legionnaire crap about SDS rolls.

Sufficiently Difficult Successful rolls.  The only way you can skill them up is to get enough SDS to proceed to next level.

Something like DC10 isn't an SDS for a L3 character, instead you need DC15 for it to be SDS.

Crap.

Sorry, just something I saw in this.  Nevermind.  Obscure reference.

OK, I neither understand the supposed problem nor the supposed solution.

All I can say is that, gee, that's a lot of dice rolling for twenty minutes of noncombat.

Quote from: EnworldThe party now has the 6 wins, so they've won the challenge, but I say nothing and I let it play out. The Samurai rolls athletics to catch the corpse gently and makes it (but it wouldn't have burst anyways since the challenge was won), then the rogue describes burying it so that it won't hurt anything else, which I tell him he doesn't need to roll, they have won the challenge, they clap and cheer a little bit, and the dryad thanks them and gives them some advice and the traditional wooden magic item that dryads always give as rewards

There are at least 2 things that bug me about the way skills are setup.  First, the corpse wouldn't have burst if the samurai failed his athletics roll.  The only reason for it working like that is that the challenge is 'over'.  Second, they didn't mention easy rolls, which I believe will hurt the overall challenges presented during play.  The way it works (if I understand it correctly), you pick an easy roll and success gives you a success.  However, if you fail, you get 2 failures instead.

So... the samurai fails his history roll and gets the last failure needed to fail the encounter, the body just explodes?  Okay, probably just the next time they touch it, such as when the samurai succeeds in his athletics roll to catch the body, but it explodes anyhow.  I like it when there is a clear cause --> effect.

The stuff they want to say is okay, I guess.
But the way they talk: Ronspeak. Pure and simple.

EDIT: It´s like reinventing the freeform (aka method of roleplaying), but giving it training wheels. Thusly invalidating what they wanted. It´s like how NARR-games adress "Story" : ass-backwards.

Yaaaay!  Now I feel even less like buying this game.

Which...is...a lot like, uh, saying that water just got wetter.

In defense of 4e:

They said THE FIRST THING sounding like they got what RPGs strengths are

Quote"You Like:
   • Blockbuster movies where non stop action keeps you on the edge of your seat until the credits roll.
• Discovering new places that no one else has explored.
• Books whose plot and character development unravel through endless twists and turns.
• Sharing good times and bad times with your friends, creating memories that can be relived in future years.
• Complex intrigues where the hero must thwart the subtle machinations of seemingly unbeatable opponents.
• Video games that put you in the heat of the battle, where your character gains experience and status over other players.
You don't like:
   • Movies where the lead character defies all logic to put themselves in harms way only to be rescued from his own stupidity by a clichéd plot device.
• Those trivial videogames storylines where you end up following the same mundane quest over and over to gain experience– not exactly your idea of an epic adventure.
• "Join the Dots" adventure games where you are a mere onlooker in a predetermined and predictable plot.
• Waiting patiently for the game developers to finish their work to have a chance to discover new continents, all the while endlessly roaming a world that feels more and more like a big cage.
• Suddenly figuring out that the character you thought unique is just one of hundreds look-alikes, and that his actions will never influence the game's preset senario in any way."

from here

Different. Seems like a clumsy way to make skills mean something - even the shit ones.

My method: Drop the shit ones, or put stuff in your game that relies on using them if your player characters have them. Don't stick a square peg in a round hole. You'll have just as hard a time in coming up with ways of justifying using your taxidermy skill to figure out a puzzle, as you would having come up with a scene where the PC could use taxidermy legitimately (IE in a stuffed animal sense of the word).

I suspect that adventure writing will include some specific tests of the nature quoted and ways of getting around them, but in unstructured play, i can see it failing as often as suceeding.

I saw this 1-2 weeks ago and I like the idea of it but I have yet to see the official implementation. I could see it being useful for novice gamemasters setting up, pacing, and gamifying a non-combat encounter. For example...

Bomb Diffusal (EL 7)
Situation: You can hear a timer audibly begin to countdown. Looking around, you spot a bomb about to explode. A man lies nearby, wounded and partially conscious, slumped against a computer terminal.
Pass/Fail: 8 successes, 6 failures (bomb diffusal attempts)
Duration/Turns: 5 minutes (1 minute)
Difficulty Classes: 21 (easy), 26 (average), 31 (hard)
Eligible Skills: Diplomancy, Computer Use, Craft (electronic), Craft (mechanical), Demolitions, Intimidate, Investigate, Knowledge (physical sciences), Knowledge (technology), Profession (police officer), Repair, Search, Spot, Treat Surgery
Boons: If any character has one of the following skills - Craft (electronic), Craft (mechanical), Knowledge (physical sciences), Knowledge (technology), Profession (police officer), or Repair - he can attempt to diffuse the bomb at no penalty. Alternatively, such characters can use thier expertise to assist a character with the Demolitions skill in his skill check with the Aid Another action. If any Aid Another action is successful, the circumstance bonus lasts the entire encounter.
Hindrances: Check events.
Significant Actions:
 Computer Use - Hack into recently viewed files, +2 to future Gather Information checks involving the nemesis
 Diplomacy - Requires man be revived and treated, cut a deal with the bombmaker, +2 to Demolitions as bombmaker spills some of the beans  
Intimidate - Requires man be revived and treated, force the password out of the scheme; +4 to Demolitions as bombmaker spills beans
 Investigate - Figure out who the man is, +2 to Intimidate or Diplomacy and future Gather Information checks involving the nemesis
 Repair - Fix faulty timer, add another turn; alternatively, remove one failure
 Search - Prying through the man's possessions; +2 to future Gather Information checks involving the nemesis
 Spot - Notice timer is incorrectly set; +2 to Repair
 Treat Injury - Reviving the man; +2 to Diplomacy
Events: If the man isn't revived by the end of the first round, he loses conciousness. By the end of the second round, he dies if not revived. At the start of the second turn, a fire started in another part of the building activates the building's sprinklers - shortcircuiting the computer and penalizing bomb diffusal attempts by 2. On the third turn, a squad of 4 attack robots (EL 5) enter the room to eliminate any interlopers (characters who deal with this assault lose out on contributing to the bomb threat for what time remains during the turn).
Reward: The timer stops signalling the bomb has been diffused. If the man was revived and treated, while he is not an insider, he proves to be useful by pointing the PCs to a location worth investigating. Also, the building's owner approaches the PCs to rewards them an additional +1 Wealth bonus at the end of the adventure.
Punishment: The bomb explodes, dealing 8d8 points of fire and bludgeoning  damage (Reflex DC 21, half damage) to everything within 120 feet. Those outside of this radius by 60 feet or less suffer 8d8 points of only bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 18, half damage). Those who survive this will have to contend with the fact that the explosion probably did enough damage to the foundation and will cause the building to collapse...

Upon hearing about it, I had conceptualized a schema of what I would prefer to do for my own games. I might come back to this later when I have my notes handy.

Looks like one of those gimmicky mechanics that Forgista would utilize in one of their games.

EDIT: Looks like Mearls has indeed taken the Kool-Aid

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAll I can say is that, gee, that's a lot of dice rolling for twenty minutes of noncombat.

It's more than 2 minutes per roll. With rolls spread around the party. That's still a lot less than combat (unless you get hung up on looking up a rule or something) At first it struck me the other way, not that many rolls, but once I counted up the rolls it sounded about right. :shrug: I get the sense that a 6/4 is pretty big deal encounter?

Quote from: PundiWTF is this shit??

This 'shit' you copy-pasted is about week and a half old. Even on RPG.net where I assume you picked it up from, since the ENWorld thread is now buried 1/2 a dozen pages back. At least you could have linked the ENWorld thread.

Quote from: KingSpoomFirst, the corpse wouldn't have burst if the samurai failed his athletics roll.

Yeah, I didn't like how he handled that.

QuoteSo... the samurai fails his history roll and gets the last failure needed to fail the encounter, the body just explodes? Okay, probably just the next time they touch it, such as when the samurai succeeds in his athletics roll to catch the body, but it explodes anyhow. I like it when there is a clear cause --> effect.

That's why you need to get from them up front what they intend to do with the results. An actual action. Or it's up to the PC to describe how the use it or act on the info (up to the player to keep it honest, that the character acts like he's confident in what he knows even when the player knows he failed the roll). Or I guess the GM could 'force' the action by saying "yeah your History tells you just to punt it, it isn't actually dangerous at all. So you walk over and kick it." I dislike the last option though but that might just be because I'm not big on dragging PCs around and making them do things and describing their success/failures.

P.S. For those that didn't notice that is NOT a 4e AP. It's someone taking a stab at adapting to 3.5e how they think 4e skills will work.

Quote from: DwightP.S. For those that didn't notice that is NOT a 4e AP. It's someone taking a stab at adapting to 3.5e how they think 4e skills will work.

In other words, it's crappy GMing, rather than the crappiness of D&D4e.

So D&D4e may or may not turn out to be crap. But we do know that this GM was crap

What a lot of fuck-arsing about and dice roll just for that little result. Keep the game moving, damnit!

Quote from: Kyle AaronIn other words, it's crappy GMing, rather than the crappiness of D&D4e.

So D&D4e may or may not turn out to be crap. But we do know that this GM was crap

Sounds like he did better than usual. Plus, in spite of the couple rough spots, it sounds a lot better than most of the non-combat I've seen out of D&D. So on both counts you could call it 'crap' but at least it's an improvement. :eek:

QuoteWhat a lot of fuck-arsing about and dice roll just for that little result. Keep the game moving, damnit!

From the bit's I've seen making something a 6/4 is really emphasizing the encounter. So, in that sense, the result isn't 'little' because it was a big event. It's kind of selfdefining that way (there was loot that came out of it even). Not only that, judging from the description given if the players weren't interested they could have just walked their characters on by and ignored the body entirely. If the players want to spend the time and effort on it? Once again they are helping define what is important and what is not.