Some partly informed views based on what has come to light so far...

1. Given that many, many melee & missile attacks base damage on the power, rather than the weapon used, weapon damage could easily have been the same for whatever weapon you are using - feats and powers (?) already have some link to the type of weapon. Different damage dice for weapons isn't that necessary, feats could increase the weapon dice damage just as easily (and does in some cases).

2. Given the similarity of powers that each class gains - ways to impart more HP damage, you could make this a point-buy system and get rid of classes altogether. When the powers are so homogenous that when you take away 1 sentence of fluff, they are pretty much identical, then classes are not that important. The challenge in making it point-buy would be to balence the costs so that not everyone ends up with the same character.

3. Everyone is a spell-caster (potentially). Real magic, in the form of Rituals, is open if you qualify for the feat. Everything else is a weapon attack with fancy doo-dads attached.

4. Despite all this, combat looks like it is a blast. Much more dynamic.

5. Epic destinies are a good idea. I wonder how they can all be accommodated if you have a large party, however? Will take some jiggery-pokery, i suspect.


The challenge, to players, is to take all of this flavourless stuff and stamp your own mark on it - to make it live. Doubtless, some will never try. Some will create great worlds where each of their powers has context within the campaign. It's the same as with any game - the difference, as i see it with 4e, is that it's basically a blank canvass waiting for your own finishing touches. Tide of Steel? No way! My Fighter Sir Tristan is inhabited by an elder spirit - one of his ancestors, and when awoken, he is entranced by the spirit, exhorting him to great feats. Banock, my dwarven fighter has a twisted secret - he has giant blood in his veins - that's why he has Reaping Strike!

Etc, etc...

The very powers you use can be plot hooks and adventure opportunities should you put your mind to it.

And now for big one: Compared to 3e, or pretty much anything, it's not worth the money... well, it's not even worth downloading it..

Quote from: FritzsAnd now for big one: Compared to 3e, or pretty much anything, it's not worth the money... well, it's not even worth downloading it..

I beg to differ

Where did summoning go? Where did creating and controlling undead go?

I like many of the things they did with the magic system (the short ritual list is a little underwhelming, but I do love the way they handled rituals), but... where the hell did all the summon monster spells go?

Quote from: beejazzWhere did summoning go? Where did creating and controlling undead go?

I like many of the things they did with the magic system (the short ritual list is a little underwhelming, but I do love the way they handled rituals), but... where the hell did all the summon monster spells go?

Same place polymorph went, is my guess.

Conjuration and summoning were some of the more time-consuming parts of spellcasting in 3e.  I'm not surprised that there aren't many examples of them, given the game philosophy.

-O

Quote from: FritzsAnd now for big one: Compared to 3e, or pretty much anything, it's not worth the money... well, it's not even worth downloading it..

What I've seen so far was worth my money at Amazon, so I'll have to respectfully disagree.

Quote from: beejazzWhere did summoning go? Where did creating and controlling undead go?

I like many of the things they did with the magic system (the short ritual list is a little underwhelming, but I do love the way they handled rituals), but... where the hell did all the summon monster spells go?

My guess is they'll be in PHB 2 as powers for a Conjurer class, who will be a summoner and buffer. The cleric has at least one pseudo-summons power. I haven't read them all to see if there are higher level versions of it.

Quote from: James McMurrayHere's a huge change I just noticed, and am hoping it's a difference between the printed book and the pdf: magic items are in the PHB. Prices, level restrictions, and abilities are all described to the players. That's a change I'm definitely not happy with. Granted, our group tended to browse the magic items section anyway, but having that be the default for all groups bugs me.

Well, magic items are, ostensibly, for the players.

So it makes sense to have them in the PLAYERS Handbook.

The DMG is all about running the game, not things like PRCs and Magic Items, which are player-focused things.

My problem is that it removes the ability of the GM to make magic items mysterious. A few minutes of toying around and the GM gives you the page number.

Although, it was kinda a no-brainer when they decided to make enchanting items a 4th level ritual. It's hard to decide if you want to learn a ritual if you don't know what sorts of stuff you can make with it. 3e had this problem when they put the crafting feats in the PH and the items and prereqs in the DMG.

Well I'd ratehr that than the 2ed system of a plethora of magic items, but noone knows who makes them, and of course theres no system for selling them, even though others will definately want them even if said item is useless to you.

Any system where magic items are fairly common should have the economy take them into account, cause trading/selling them is natural, and it looks stupid if its not a default assumption.  Also if they are other than weapons of the gods/uber rare, then you'd better explain how to make them, cause SOMEONE is, and you can't hand-wave that away.

So can anyone give me an idea of how many feats/powers/rituals are not combat related? I see comments that the ritual list is somewhat short does that mean that there is no exotica in there or do we expect an expansion with a lot more rituals and rules for players crafting their own?

Feats are ostensibly combat related.  Rituals are non-combat related exclusively, as they take minutes to enact.  All the spells that used to be utilitarian and non-combat - like knock and Comprehend Languages - are Rituals now.  Yes, there are less Rituals.  Maybe 20-30.  Their duration is a lot longer too, but they all cost money to enact, so theres a trade off.  Comprehend Languages, f'rex, lasts 24 hours.  Nice, and worth the 50gp investment to enact.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralFeats are ostensibly combat related.  Rituals are non-combat related exclusively, as they take minutes to enact.  All the spells that used to be utilitarian and non-combat - like knock and Comprehend Languages - are Rituals now.  Yes, there are less Rituals.  Maybe 20-30.  Their duration is a lot longer too, but they all cost money to enact, so theres a trade off.  Comprehend Languages, f'rex, lasts 24 hours.  Nice, and worth the 50gp investment to enact.

Are the costs in terms of material components or just a flat gp cost ?

Is there any wiggle room for doing clever stuff with rituals in a combat situation or are the rituals expressly selected to restrict this (like casting enlarge/reduce in combat used to be for example). So rituals are split into levels I guess and these are a direct relation to PC levels (this would be a real improvement on 3rd level spells you need to be 5th level to cast for example)? does this mean there are only a couple of rituals per level?
Is there a 'magical philosphy' fluff text in there to explain how powers and rituals work?
Do the powers start to read as spells after a while (so does a 12th level Rogue power reallly seem more liek a spell than a combat move?)

Quote from: jibbajibbaAre the costs in terms of material components or just a flat gp cost ?

Is there any wiggle room for doing clever stuff with rituals in a combat situation or are the rituals expressly selected to restrict this (like casting enlarge/reduce in combat used to be for example). So rituals are split into levels I guess and these are a direct relation to PC levels (this would be a real improvement on 3rd level spells you need to be 5th level to cast for example)? does this mean there are only a couple of rituals per level?
Is there a 'magical philosphy' fluff text in there to explain how powers and rituals work?
Do the powers start to read as spells after a while (so does a 12th level Rogue power reallly seem more liek a spell than a combat move?)

Ritual casting time is in MINUTES.  Combat round time is in SECONDS.  Unless you want your character doing nothing for entire combats, its not meant to be used in combat.

Rituals have a "Component cost" I haven't read enough to see if there are specific components, or a GP rate.

Rituals are split into Levels tied to character level.  You start with a handful, but you can gain more by buying ritual scrolls or finding them.  They work pretty much like old school spells - you have a ritual book, and you cast rituals from them.

Powers and Spells read identical, but its more "Spells being more like manouvers" than otherwise.  Almost all wizard spells require you to attack with them "Intelligence vs. Reflex Defense", and then roll damage.  Most spells in previous editions didn't have this assumption (to use a spell you attack with it - in pre 3ed, most spells just auto-go off unless you save, very few "attack" spells).  But its all in the fluff.  If you WANT to see Exploits and Manouvers as Spells, nothing there is going to dissuade you.  Some are "power-y" especially the Warlord and Cleric ones.  But they read more to me like they do in almost any other RPG - these are things Fighters do with their swords, and are mostly "physical"  (move and hit, in many different varieties) while the "magical" classes have more "flashy" abilities.  The martial classes are very grounded in their abilities keying off physical activity, so they don't "feel" like super powers.  But again, if thats your preconcieved notion (general "you", not specific), nothign here is going to disabuse you of that feeling.

Warlord to me seems like a Combat Bard.  His powers key off inspiration and encouragement of allies, so it feels like an old school Bard, but with big armor and weapons.

Thanks muchly