Haffrung, under earlier editions did your group roll percentiles to understand spells?  Did you randomly roll initial spells for 1st level MUs?

Quote from: HaffrungWhile I enjoy the resource-management aspect of D&D spellcasters, I've always found the magic system unsatisfying. The biggest problem is many of the more esoteric or non-violent spells are never used.

I see this occur all the time in GURPS. Fireball is an effective attack against a target but it takes some prep in the context of GURPS Combat. However to get fireball you have to take spells like Create Fire, Ignite Fire, etc. Useful but not typcial combat spells.

For one player the lightbulb clicked on when he realize all the situational uses he could put Create Fire too. It still useful for a one on one confrontation but in certain situation the spell can be really useful.

Afterwards that players started looking all the other weak spells he had to take and started figuring out situations in which they would be useful.

However GURPS Magic has a very different feel than D&D Magic so it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

EDIT: I replied to ghost rat
That´s backwards.

What does a 1st level fighter do after getiing hit?

1st level characters are SUPPOSED to be weaklings.

3.5 already boosted them to very, very playable levels.

Quote from: jrientsHaffrung, under earlier editions did your group roll percentiles to understand spells?  Did you randomly roll initial spells for 1st level MUs?

I'd usually roll for starting spells. Still, if you ended up with one effective combat spell like magic missile, sleep, or shield, that's about all you'd ever end up using.

I'm actually pretty excited about this change...

First off, let me say that I love the Complete Mage reserve feats.  I thought it was brilliant to give spellcasters the ability to stay useful over multiple fights.

I have 2 main gripes about the way spells currently work...

(1) The "Blow Spells - Rest - Repeat" cycle.  While a DM can set up things to make this less viable (such as random encounters, time limits, time-sensitive goals, and so on), it's still very prevalent.  With the availability of spells like Rope Trick, random encounters aren't even a deterrent in most circumstances.  I find it hard to call the way spellcasters currently work "resource management."  It feels a lot more like "let's go balls out for 20 minutes and sleep!"

(2) Spell lookup times.  I really, really dislike having to look up spells during game time since each of them creates their own little rules microcosm.  I mean, Dispel Magic alone takes up almost a full page and has 3 separate ways to cast it.  Complicating this further is the multitude of near-identical Conditions that I need to look up for each spell effect.

Now, don't get me wrong - there's also something I love about having special case & oddball spells.  It just brings the game to a creaking halt sometimes.

(Thank goodness for systemreferencedocuments.org!)

-O

Quote from: ghost ratBut especially at low levels, a wizard is downright pitiful in a fight, even fully loaded with spells.

At 1st level, casting Sleep before the party wades into combat with a room full of goblins makes the Wizard anything but pitiful.  Of course once that spell is used up... they're a bit on the weak side.

If you want to try this out with current rules, also look to the Factotum class in Dungeonscape. He has 'per encounter' and 'per day' abilities.


At first we were very confused by this, reading 'per encounter' as 'per day' across the board. So it looked like, "ah, well as a 4th level guy, he can use his spell like power..3 times per day. Thats kind of lame.."

But 3 times per encounter makes lots of sense. It's usually just an attack or a save or whatever. And the number isn't high-- even at high level, they only expect an encounter to last 4-7 rounds (my estimate... I think).

Quote from: obryn(1) The "Blow Spells - Rest - Repeat" cycle.  While a DM can set up things to make this less viable (such as random encounters, time limits, time-sensitive goals, and so on), it's still very prevalent.  With the availability of spells like Rope Trick, random encounters aren't even a deterrent in most circumstances.  I find it hard to call the way spellcasters currently work "resource management."  It feels a lot more like "let's go balls out for 20 minutes and sleep!"

(2) Spell lookup times.  I really, really dislike having to look up spells during game time since each of them creates their own little rules microcosm.  I mean, Dispel Magic alone takes up almost a full page and has 3 separate ways to cast it.  Complicating this further is the multitude of near-identical Conditions that I need to look up for each spell effect.

In my mind, 2 is a feature, not a bug. I've come to this view very reluctantly, but I now think that spells with weird, variable, and complex effects are the best of a number of (none completely satisfying) ways to ensure that magic retains a sense of 'magicalness' in a game. Effects-based systems only reach the same levels of color in the hands of the very best players, ditto freeform.

Though I agree that the mechanical burden outside the spell itself could and for my tastes probably should be simplified.

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1 is a huge problem of all magic systems that don't just let a mage do whatever whenever. Spellpoints, spell slots, memorizatoin, fatigue, whatever it is, what do you do when the resource runs out? And then there's stuff like rope trick, yeah. You can solve it by having an absolute time limit for the adventure ('the princess' head will be struck off at midnight!') but that doesn't work for every adventure.

4e's proposed solution, where only a few of the best of the abilities are per day, will probably help some, because then there's less incentive (come on, man, just use your freakin' lightning bolt, we're not going to camp for a day just so you can get delayed blast fireball back, or whatever).

I feel like one ought to be able to do better though at the problem: make spells a resource that have to be stretched over many encounters.

2 ideas:

1) Have them usable say once/10 encounters, or whatever, do it all in game-speak. I kind of hate the formalistic nature of that and it doesn't represent attrition very well (since you get stuff back sooner or later whether you rest or not). But it does work.

2) Extreme version - all spells are scroll spells and you can only make new scrolls after each adventure. Interesting that was how Arneson's game orignally worked IIRC, spells were things you found like magic items and had one use.

Quote from: CalithenaIn my mind, 2 is a feature, not a bug. I've come to this view very reluctantly, but I now think that spells with weird, variable, and complex effects are the best of a number of (none completely satisfying) ways to ensure that magic retains a sense of 'magicalness' in a game. Effects-based systems only reach the same levels of color in the hands of the very best players, ditto freeform.

Though I agree that the mechanical burden outside the spell itself could and for my tastes probably should be simplified.

Oh, don't get me wrong.  I have a love-hate relationship with weirdass spells.  I love the odd effects, and I love reading new spells that bring something new to the table.  The fact that they can be used in so many versatile ways is juse awesome.  I also love playing spellcasters because of that versatility.

I just think they slow down the game...

On reflection, though, it bothers me a lot more for NPCs and monsters than for PCs...  I can expect a player to look up spells all the time, whereas if I'm preparing to run - say - a Hezrou encounter, I need to look up Chaos Hammer, Unholy Blight, Blasphemy, and Gaseous Form.

Quote1 is a huge problem of all magic systems that don't just let a mage do whatever whenever. Spellpoints, spell slots, memorizatoin, fatigue, whatever it is, what do you do when the resource runs out? And then there's stuff like rope trick, yeah. You can solve it by having an absolute time limit for the adventure ('the princess' head will be struck off at midnight!') but that doesn't work for every adventure.

4e's proposed solution, where only a few of the best of the abilities are per day, will probably help some, because then there's less incentive (come on, man, just use your freakin' lightning bolt, we're not going to camp for a day just so you can get delayed blast fireball back, or whatever).

I feel like one ought to be able to do better though at the problem: make spells a resource that have to be stretched over many encounters.

2 ideas:

1) Have them usable say once/10 encounters, or whatever, do it all in game-speak. I kind of hate the formalistic nature of that and it doesn't represent attrition very well (since you get stuff back sooner or later whether you rest or not). But it does work.

2) Extreme version - all spells are scroll spells and you can only make new scrolls after each adventure. Interesting that was how Arneson's game orignally worked IIRC, spells were things you found like magic items and had one use.

Well, I like the way reserve feats handle it...  But otherwise I'm going to keep an open mind...  I don't really like much of any solution, but I think the Saga/Bo9S way may be a pretty good one.

-O

Quote from: ghost ratBut especially at low levels, a wizard is downright pitiful in a fight, even fully loaded with spells. A low-level wizard doesn't switch to a crossbow after he runs out of spells, he uses the crossbow first because his low level spells do less damage than a crossbow bolt. Or will be saved against. Or whatever.

Then he's being played like a numbskull.

You're a wizard. Use a cantrip, a bit of flash or smoke powder, a few appropriate magical looking words and kobolds will run in fear. Can't beat your foe in a fair fight? Cheat, throw a bag of marbles on the floor.

In no edition of D&D has a low level mage started out as an equal combatant, but in every version thus far he's been worth playing if you're smart enough to realise that spellcasting is only part of being the mage character.

Spells per encounter... Heck, its just dull. It'll require downpowering many of the spells and it will replace the creative roleplay you need to be a mage with the bang-bang-bang of each encounter having had a reset button pressed so you can do just the same thing again.

QuoteIt sounds like wizards will always have some kind of little magic bolt to throw around, which is a HUGE improvement in my eyes. If I play a wizard, it's because I want to solve my problems with magic, and 80%* of the problems in D&D are fights.

Oh, dear. 80%? Really?

Sounds tedious to me. Really. D&D is not (and should not be) a combat game, if you want that then buy a miniatures combat boardgame... Oh, thats the direction they've been taking 3rd ed in, and its where they're going even more with 4th ed... Such a shame, because the basic engine of the game is good.

Quote from: HaffrungWhile I enjoy the resource-management aspect of D&D spellcasters, I've always found the magic system unsatisfying. The biggest problem is many of the more esoteric or non-violent spells are never used. I'd guess almost half of the 1st and 2nd level spells in the PHB have never been used in our 27 years of D&D.

Every one of the low level spells in the RC gets used in my game, other than floating disc which remains the forgotten distant cousin.

A big problem I've always had with AD&D in all three editions is the sheer mass of spells in the books, most of which just don't ever get used. Seems to detract from PCs creating their own distinctive spells too. You could improve every single edition of AD&D by limiting included spells in the PHB to a dozen per level.

Its higher level mages who get most mileage out of low level utility spells. Always has been.

Quote from: obryn(1) The "Blow Spells - Rest - Repeat" cycle.  While a DM can set up things to make this less viable (such as random encounters, time limits, time-sensitive goals, and so on), it's still very prevalent.  With the availability of spells like Rope Trick, random encounters aren't even a deterrent in most circumstances.  I find it hard to call the way spellcasters currently work "resource management."  It feels a lot more like "let's go balls out for 20 minutes and sleep!"

Then the DM is a fool. Why aren't the PCs working to a time limit? Is the evil necromancer plotting to overthtrow the duke willing to wait for weeks while the PCs get round to confrontign him?

Want to stop them using rope trick? Give them a bag of holding and let them figure out that you'll have odd things happen if you start takign extra-dimensional spaces into extra-dimensional spaces.

Quote(2) Spell lookup times.  I really, really dislike having to look up spells during game time since each of them creates their own little rules microcosm.  I mean, Dispel Magic alone takes up almost a full page and has 3 separate ways to cast it.  Complicating this further is the multitude of near-identical Conditions that I need to look up for each spell effect.

Here I agree with you. The 3rd edition spell desctiption bloat baffles me, very often the spell description could be done in eight lines but takes a whole column. I think thats the 3e and 3.5e PHB could have benefitted from some serious editing.

So how does this magic revamp handle the big spells like Wish or Genesis? Genesis has a caasting time of a week and you get a demiplane out of it. Wish is, well, Wish - the game breaker of all spells.

Quote from: jeff37923So how does this magic revamp handle the big spells like Wish or Genesis? Genesis has a caasting time of a week and you get a demiplane out of it. Wish is, well, Wish - the game breaker of all spells.

I imagine casting time will supersede the per encounter/per day rate, so you may be able to cast Wish once a day, but once you start you need to spend a week on it and be unable to cast any other spell without cancelling it.

Alternatively they may expand the casting rates to include per week/per month/per year/per lifetime etc.

Quote from: CabThen the DM is a fool. Why aren't the PCs working to a time limit? Is the evil necromancer plotting to overthtrow the duke willing to wait for weeks while the PCs get round to confrontign him?

Wow, so every adventure should be like that?

My Wilderlands game is largely one of exploration - going to remote locations, finding long-lost dungeons, and exploring them.  If every dungeon has a time limit, that's ... well, frankly crazy.  It's an artificial constraint.

QuoteWant to stop them using rope trick? Give them a bag of holding and let them figure out that you'll have odd things happen if you start takign extra-dimensional spaces into extra-dimensional spaces.

Or they don't take the bag of holding, or they hide it, etc...  

I've never noticed you posting before, so a quick question...  Should I pretty much expect most of your posts to be "Less is more!  If you want more or different it's because you're dumb!  RC uber alles!"?

-O