Quote from: Consonant DudeNow, I haven't done a worldwide survey or anything but gnomes haven't been all that popular and nothing says the new races won't get their fanbase in time.

I'm sure the lack of gnomes will be a bummer for some. But to say this makes the product incomplete? That's just bullshit. I personally lament the apparent loss of Druids and I don't go around overreacting.

Okay, in fairness... yeah... there's been some anti-gnome sentiment, along with some anti-halfling and anti-half-elf sentiment. Honestly, the silliness of removing gnomes wouldn't bug me so much if their choice of races to replace it wasn't... you know... completely inexplicable. Gnomes being replaced by warforged? Fine. Gnomes being replaced by Eladrin? Why?


As for the druid... why haven't I heard about this? And why aren't you reacting? Druids are the epitome of awesome, especially given a points of light setting... where it might actually be cool to side with the wilderness that's eating up what's left of civilization. DnD's all "Yeah, let's bring out the antihero parade" and then nixes the druid?

Consider me lamenting and overreacting.

Edit: Barbarian too? 0_o

This is madness!

Enworld's collected hints and what not says these are in:

Fighter
Ranger
Paladin
Cleric
Wizard
Warlock
Rogue
Warlord

These are in later books:

Druid
Monk
Bard
Barbarian
Sorcerer

Quote from: beejazzAs for the druid... why haven't I heard about this? And why aren't you reacting?

Because I pretty much always expect a re-alignment of classes in every new edition. I wouldn't want to pay for an edition that looks like those I already own anyway.

Don't get me wrong. I'm with you. I think druids kick ass. But what I expect to be sacred cows in D&D are:

Warrior (Fighter), Priest (Cleric), Rogue (Thief) and Mage (Wizard). And the four classic races of dwarves, men, elves and halflings.

Marketing-wise, it would also seem suicidal to remove either the ranger or paladin (they are vastly popular IME) so I am not surprised they are in.

Quote from: beejazzEdit: Barbarian too? 0_o

This is madness!

But Barbarian as part of the core PHB is a sacred cow dating from... year 2000. As you can see, not much of a sacred cow at all. And again an example of how taste and perception vary from individual to individual. To me, Barbarian is an inelegant background awkwardly put in a class, and they aren't really part of my long history of the game.

And don't forget... all those classes will eventually appear in other books. Hopefully this means each class gets the level of attention it deserves and they do certain concepts justice by paying them a lot of attention (Ranger and Bard come to mind. They can use some tweaking and I dare say even the Druid might benefit from a facelift)

Chris,

Quit being a fucknut.

You started this nonsensical rant. I responded to the arguments and since then, you've resorted to silly and irrelevant pictures.

You can paint people as drinking the 4e Kool Aid all you want but that's not what's happening here. The only one who seems to drink some Kool Aid here (lacking objectivity) seems to be you.

Nobody forces you to buy books. The Draconomicons look optional to me. If you don't like them, don't buy them. Supplements have been a mainstay of this hobby for a long-ass time. I don't see what's shocking about it.

Calling a 288-page book "tiny" just makes you look like a retard. What exactly is your beef? If you don't like the look of D&D 4e, just say so. It's not a crime.

The lack of Bards as a core class is one of the main things that makes me pause when it comes to jumping on the 4E bandwagon.

This is a completely non-objective personal reason. I like Bards. They have been my favored character class to play since AD&D 1E. I like how 3.x handles Bards as Jack-of-all-Trades and "social combat" gurus. Without them to play with the Core Rules, my interest in 4E is curtailed.

Besides all that, I'm wondering why they were left out because they helped to define all of the other Core Classes in AD&D 2E and 3.x by showing what those other classes were not.

Quote from: jeff37923The lack of Bards as a core class is one of the main things that makes me pause when it comes to jumping on the 4E bandwagon.

This is completely non-objective personal reason. I like Bards. They have been my favored character class to play since AD&D 1E. I like how 3.x handles Bards as Jack-of-all-Trades and "social combat" gurus. Without them to play with the Core Rules, my interest in 4E is curtailed.

Besides all that, I'm wondering why they were left out because they helped to define all of the other Core Classes in AD&D 2E and 3.x by showing what those other classes were not.

I feel the same way. Bards and Druids were favorites.

I don't remember where I read that, but it seems the WotC team wants to redefine the Bard. Which does make sense to me. The class has had several different implementations and none of them has really been a "hit" with the masses (nor with me). I don't know what direction the archetype will take.
The design team has said that some (reportedly less popular or problematic) classes are getting a facelift and that they will benefit from extra time and care.

Quote from: Consonant DudeI feel the same way. Bards and Druids were favorites.

I don't remember where I read that, but it seems the WotC team wants to redefine the Bard. Which does make sense to me. The class has had several different implementations and none of them has really been a "hit" with the masses (nor with me). I don't know what direction the archetype will take.
The design team has said that some (reportedly less popular or problematic) classes are getting a facelift and that they will benefit from extra time and care.

Last I read, Bards were going to be some kind of channellers of "otherworldly powers" (whatever the Hell that is going to mean). Personally, I always viewed Bards as figures of the Medieval Media (fantasy based or not), that's where I got the fun out of them.

My issue is with how the whole thing is being marketed.  In reality,  the Draconomicron is a suppliment [albeit an incomplete one likely padded with godawful fluff to justify splitting it into multiple books], but the classes, races, and monsters that are mising from the core are not really intended to be optional.  They are not "suppliments"-- just an "expanding core".  PH2, DMG2, MM2 are all part of the official core rules in 4E (this is a fact, from Scott Rouse himself, not a speculation).  That said, they are also taking things that should be core and putting them in separate "supplements", which let's just refer to as "holding them hostage".  That's what is pissing me off about it, and my reason for the boycott.

PS-- Think that half-orcs barbarians shouldn't be core?  You want Eladrin warlocks instead?  If you answer yes to either of those questions, it is actually impossible for you to understand what (I think) is wrong with 4e, so I think we should resolve that further arguing between us is useless.  After this, before I decide to respond to one of your posts I will approach wall, bang head into it, and repeat as necessary.  Feel free to do the same for mine.

Quote from: jeff37923Last I read, Bards were going to be some kind of channellers of "otherworldly powers" (whatever the Hell that is going to mean). Personally, I always viewed Bards as figures of the Medieval Media (fantasy based or not), that's where I got the fun out of them.

Same here. I wouldn't mind if Bards had powers related to the following:

Diplomacy/Interaction (and possibly leadership, if done well)
Arts
Lore
Various duties as far as rites are concerned

I think it's cool that they've decided to give a default flavor to D&D 4e (Points of light) but it seems underused so far. Every class should have a default role associated with that flavor. And the obvious one for bards is to be the link between these various points of light!

So I envision a teacher, a bearer of news. A person in charge of carrying missives or a neutral party in negociations. The witness for duels, baptisms, marriages, funerals. The one you turn to when an unwed mother finally decides to find the father of her child. The one who records/spreads information with simple storytelling, elaborate chronicles, inspiring poems or moving songs.

The otherworldly powers don't sit well with me. I'll wait, but I'm not optimistic.

Quote from: BASHMANMy issue is with how the whole thing is being marketed.  In reality,  the Draconomicron is a suppliment [albeit an incomplete one likely padded with godawful fluff to justify splitting it into multiple books], but the classes, races, and monsters that are mising from the core are not really intended to be optional.  They are not "suppliments"-- just an "expanding core".  PH2, DMG2, MM2 are all part of the official core rules in 4E (this is a fact, from Scott Rouse himself, not a speculation).  That said, they are also taking things that should be core and putting them in separate "supplements", which let's just refer to as "holding them hostage".  That's what is pissing me off about it, and my reason for the boycott.

PS-- Think that half-orcs barbarians shouldn't be core?  You want Eladrin warlocks instead?  If you answer yes to either of those questions, it is actually impossible for you to understand what (I think) is wrong with 4e, so I think we should resolve that further arguing between us is useless.  After this, before I decide to respond to one of your posts I will approach wall, bang head into it, and repeat as necessary.  Feel free to do the same for mine.

Hi Chris. Thanks for discussing the issue.

I understand your point, believe me. But those are aesthetic concerns.

WotC's three core books are more than enough to run a variety of campaigns. If they were holding back vital information that makes running the game a chore, or plain impossible, I could understand the accusation. Say, if weapon damages were only available in a weapon supplement and magic rules in another.

But we still have the same model used since the beginning of AD&D: three corebooks. They've just switched some races and classes, like they always do.

My disagreement with you stems from the fact you are confusing "I think the choices for this edition suck" with "they're increasing the number of books needed".

The two aren't the same. For instance, you're not glad about the loss of the two races. But I am! I think it rocks and I prefer the two new races. I really feel bad for you, but it's a real plus for me.

If WotC really wanted to milk the customer base in an extreme fashion, they'd take out some much more popular stuff. Archetypical stuff like the four main races and four main classes.

If you want to claim that gnomes rock, go ahead. As I have said in another thread, I think the "save the gnomes" initiative is kind of cool! But if you want to pretend that removing a race few people give a shit about is an indication that they want to milk the fanbase, I have to disagree.

Quote from: Consonant DudeBut we still have the same model used since the beginning of AD&D: three corebooks. They've just switched some races and classes, like they always do.

I think the big switch (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is the expanding core.  That's a core 3 in 2008, 2009, 2010....that's a bit of a different model, isn't it? :confused:  Not splat or source; core.

Quote from: Consonant DudeThe two aren't the same. For instance, you're not glad about the loss of the two races. But I am! I think it rocks and I prefer the two new races. I really feel bad for you, but it's a real plus for me.

They're getting rid of two now? Please tell me the other is half elf.

Also, I thought there were three new races: dragonborn, eladrin, and tieflings.

Why do they have 2 elves now?  If they're going to get rid of classics to make room for something new, then why not make it new like Cactus people or something.  2 elves makes no sense.

Quote from: beejazzThey're getting rid of two now? Please tell me the other is half elf.

Earth to Beejazz, where have you been?

Half-orcs and Gnomes are out.

QuoteAlso, I thought there were three new races: dragonborn, eladrin, and tieflings.

These guys are all in, although Eladrin are really just the Intelligent elves which have appeared under numerous names in the past (Grey, Sun, etc) so not really that new.