4E - My review!

John Morrow · March 03, 2008, 11:59:24 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditOk, well, it still reads like you were playing a minis game. Explain that.

Look at the bright side. If it does evolve into a minis game, it will be only a matter of time until it re-evolves into an RPG. Even GW skirted the edges with games like Rogue Trader, Necromunda, and Mordheim.

jeff37923 · March 04, 2008, 12:41:48 AM

Quote from: RPGPunditThe point is my suspicion is that the ideology driving 4e is the ideology of the Forge, which Mike Mearls has long expressed admiration for.

Now, the Forge believes that D&D is good for nothing but hack n slash combat.

If those are the people who's ideology you are following in designing a new edition of D&D; you will make it into a self fulfilling prophecy, and 4e will become the very first version of D&D ever that really and truly IS just mindless hack n' slash.

But even beyond that, it seems like the mindless hack n' slash they're promoting doesn't even seem like RPG combat. It seems like a miniature combat game.

RPGPundit

Now THIS is Lovecraftian Horror at its finest!

blakkie · March 04, 2008, 12:44:57 AM

Quote from: jeff37923Now THIS is Lovecraftian Horror at its finest!

A man sitting alone in his apartment puffing on a pipe :pundit: , reading tomes of arcane mystery over and over and over, spiraling down from humanity into paranoid madness?

EDIT: The really scary part? Chris Parma, the Great Satan and defiler of all that is right in RPGs, agrees with RPGPundit that 4e just isn't D&D! Now what is Pundit going to do?

[size=-2].... wait a second, they both have RPG system products they are hocking, games that could be said to be somewhat competing with D&D. Could there be a connection?

[/size]

beejazz · March 04, 2008, 12:56:29 AM

Quote from: RPGPunditOk, well, it still reads like you were playing a minis game. Explain that.

I mean, if this is what I wanted, couldn't I just play the D&D minis game and add some ad-lib Roleplaying?

RPGPundit

Ever read the minis handbook? DnD puts out some nice minis, but most of us that have bought them (in my very limited experience) have bought them for the RPG. The minis handbook has the marshall... notable because it was a new core class that really made a buzz prior to the release of the completes... but the minis game? Really wasn't all that good.

Abyssal Maw · March 04, 2008, 01:16:20 AM

You seem to be getting Chris Pramas (cool Green Ronin guy) mixed up with Bruce Baugh (Gamma World defiler).

although I'm given to understand they both have.. beards?

Pierce Inverarity · March 04, 2008, 02:07:54 AM

Quote from: Abyssal MawI don't believe this at all. it's important to note that Mike Mearls was one of the people that hung out with the original group from Gaming Outpost. That included Ron Edwards, Clinton Nixon, Jared Sorensen, Ed Healy, Scarlet Jester, Mytholder, Graveyard Greg, Nick Lalone, and others....* But Mike's ideas about roleplaying games and his design skills predate and outshine anything those numbskulls at the forge could ever come with by several thousand degrees (with the possible exception of Jared Sorensen, who is awesome, but designs a bit too far out of the mainstream for most peoples tastes.) I remember when Mearls got his first RPG writing job- (Elevator to the Underworld for Feng Shui).

Scarlet Jester came up with the core mechanic for Legends of Alyria IIRC. Mytholder is the designer of Mongoose Traveller. Most of the rest of the party is known well enough.

Given that list, how is hanging out at the Gaming Outpost NOT a bona fide Forge credential?

Just what ARE Mike Mearls's great ideas about roleplaying games? Because Pundy seems to me spot on.

Melan · March 04, 2008, 02:15:47 AM

Quote from: Pierce InverarityJust what ARE Mike Mearls's great ideas about roleplaying games? Because Pundy seems to me spot on.

I am also curious about the list (and no snark is intended). I know he wrote stuff. I know he likes to name-drop his old school creds. But what is his contribution to the hobby?

I have no idea!

TheShadow · March 04, 2008, 02:53:47 AM

Funny, I could have sworn Mearls was flavour of the month around here for a while pre-4e announcement when he deigned to post a little bit. Guess he's blotted his pristine copybook...

jeff37923 · March 04, 2008, 03:46:10 AM

Quote from: MelanI am also curious about the list (and no snark is intended). I know he wrote stuff. I know he likes to name-drop his old school creds. But what is his contribution to the hobby?

I have no idea!

Offhand, I know he was the main writer for Portals & Planes, a book from the Legends & Lairs line by Fantasy Flight Games. The book wasn't that bad, actually.

jeff37923 · March 04, 2008, 03:47:19 AM

Quote from: blakkie[size=-2].... wait a second, they both have RPG system products they are hocking, games that could be said to be somewhat competing with D&D. Could there be a connection?[/size]

Sanity Check!

Settembrini · March 04, 2008, 04:00:52 AM

First I liked Mike Mears. Really.

Then He wrote a blog article about skills. That was total crap, and showd me he plays totally different from me.

Then he "re-imagined" the Beholder and Rust Monster.

From that time on, I grew more and more suspicious about him.

I´m pretty sure some cyber stalker could prove how I went from Fanboy (Warblade!!!) to Mearls critic way, way, way before 4e was even announced.

Ecnount4rdization is driven by Mearls & Jacobs. Paizo IS one of the big ideological cesspools that lead to this coming dark age.

David R · March 04, 2008, 04:42:29 AM

Quote from: The_ShadowFunny, I could have sworn Mearls was flavour of the month around here for a while pre-4e announcement when he deigned to post a little bit. Guess he's blotted his pristine copybook...

Yeah, apparently he deserves to be hated because he does not play like "us" anymore :haw:

But never fear, if you say his name five times while staring at a mirror....

Regards,
David R

Melan · March 04, 2008, 04:45:34 AM

Quote from: jeff37923Offhand, I know he was the main writer for Portals & Planes, a book from the Legends & Lairs line by Fantasy Flight Games. The book wasn't that bad, actually.

Again, I know he wrote stuff. But what makes it stand out? Why Mearls, of all people?

Caesar Slaad · March 04, 2008, 07:41:16 AM

Quote from: The_ShadowFunny, I could have sworn Mearls was flavour of the month around here for a while pre-4e announcement when he deigned to post a little bit. Guess he's blotted his pristine copybook...

(shrug) I'm not afraid to change my mind. Or rather, recognize that a good supplement designer doesn't make a good developer. At least not to my taste.

I really thought that some of Mearls' D20 products--like Quintessential Wizard and Portals & Planes--were great stuff. But he signed on to WotC and the trouble began with the likes of Book of Nine Swords. Bleh.

I guess it's sort of like discovering a great local band, and seeing them go to pot when they sign on with the big labels.

Dirk Remmecke · March 04, 2008, 08:14:21 AM

Quote from: RPGPunditReally? So you would see this new edition as just as capable of running a long-term, roleplay intense, political or social themed RPG where combat is not the main theme of the game and is secondary to investigation or political conflict? Or to run a pastiche travel-logue that is about all kinds of adventuring, and not just fighting creatures with too many templates?

I am not sure about how the "roleplay intense" part fits in, but here is a quote from one of Massawyrm's glaring "reviews":

"XP works a lot differently now too. EVERYTHING you do can pretty much get you XP. The big change is that Social Encounters will net you xp. Traps and puzzles are XP based rather than just CRs. And taking a tip from WoW, there are even QUEST REWARDS now. The DMG even includes suggestions on how PC's can instigate their own quests. These are no longer vague rule suggestions – but are instead hard and fast rules that allow you to really control the rate of level progression without feeling like you're just lumping XP on the PC's. At the same time, the new system allows you to take the players from one level to the next without ever having to swing a sword. Not that you'd necessarily want to, but all of a sudden courtly intrigue and puzzle quest heavy campaigns are just as viable XP wise as straight hack and slash. And it's all based on the same simple mechanics."