Quote from: Abyssal MawHonestly, I think the pig farmer, and the mage who can't cast, and the incompetent rogue won't fit in  with 4th edition. I can't apologize for that, though. They hardly fit in with 3rd edition. Maybe True 20?

We'll see. I have a whole character type named after me in my group. If mechanically substandard yet awesome character can be made, I'll do it.

Seanchai

Quote from: JongWKYou, of all people, pulling the rollplay vs. roleplay argument? I roll to disbelieve. :eek:

The point is my suspicion is that the ideology driving 4e is the ideology of the Forge, which Mike Mearls has long expressed admiration for.

Now, the Forge believes that D&D is good for nothing but hack n slash combat.

If those are the people who's ideology you are following in designing a new edition of D&D; you will make it into a self fulfilling prophecy, and 4e will become the very first version of D&D ever that really and truly IS just mindless hack n' slash.

But even beyond that, it seems like the mindless hack n' slash they're promoting doesn't even seem like RPG combat. It seems like a miniature combat game.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, keep in mind it was a mechanical demo that was designed to only showcase the game mechanics. The players got pre-generated characters, and they were the same characters that were used in the delve and the other preview. And despite all that, they still did some roleplaying at my tables.

Is it still D&D? It undoubtably is! And it made me want to use it for a real campaign, where players would have control over making their own characters. I can see how this is going to work in a real campaign, and it's exciting.

I see it this way: D&D already has such things as at-will abilities, if you consider the melee attack as an at-will ability.

Really? So you would see this new edition as just as capable of running a long-term, roleplay intense, political or social themed RPG where combat is not the main theme of the game and is secondary to investigation or political conflict? Or to run a pastiche travel-logue that is about all kinds of adventuring, and not just fighting creatures with too many templates?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditReally? So you would see this new edition as just as capable of running a long-term, roleplay intense, political or social themed RPG where combat is not the main theme of the game and is secondary to investigation or political conflict? Or to run a pastiche travel-logue that is about all kinds of adventuring, and not just fighting creatures with too many templates?

RPGPundit

In a word: Yes.

Quote from: SettembriniAM, can you say anything against the tactical hollowness argument?
How is it different from my Ruby Knight/Crusader, who´s powerful, but could be played by a Javascript?

Of all people I thought you'd know that tactics are the easy part of combat, so in practice should be something reasonably do-able via 'javascript'.

It's strategy that should never be that simple.

Or did you forget that Chess Grand Masters now bow before the might of Computers? Chess being the ultimate (supposedly) tactical game out there...


:raise:

Quote from: RPGPunditReally? So you would see this new edition as just as capable of running a long-term, roleplay intense, political or social themed RPG where combat is not the main theme of the game and is secondary to investigation or political conflict? Or to run a pastiche travel-logue that is about all kinds of adventuring, and not just fighting creatures with too many templates?

The tone seems pretty hard-wired to action hero style play.  Within that limitation I'm sure you could present some different scenarios.

If you want the tone to be something other than action hero (gritty, horror, realistic, etc) that's where I think you'll have trouble with the system.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe point is my suspicion is that the ideology driving 4e is the ideology of the Forge, which Mike Mearls has long expressed admiration for.

Now, the Forge believes that D&D is good for nothing but hack n slash combat.

If those are the people who's ideology you are following in designing a new edition of D&D; you will make it into a self fulfilling prophecy, and 4e will become the very first version of D&D ever that really and truly IS just mindless hack n' slash.

But even beyond that, it seems like the mindless hack n' slash they're promoting doesn't even seem like RPG combat. It seems like a miniature combat game.

RPGPundit

I don't believe this at all. it's important to note that Mike Mearls was one of the people that hung out with the original group from Gaming Outpost. That included Ron Edwards, Clinton Nixon, Jared Sorensen, Ed Healy, Scarlet Jester, Mytholder, Graveyard Greg, Nick Lalone, and others....* But Mike's ideas about roleplaying games and his design skills predate and outshine anything those numbskulls at the forge could ever come with by several thousand degrees (with the possible exception of Jared Sorensen, who is awesome, but designs a bit too far out of the mainstream for most peoples tastes.)  I remember when Mearls  got his first RPG writing job- (Elevator to the Underworld for Feng Shui).

Mike has the most prolific record of quality fantasy focused d20 design, bar none, in all of 3rd Edition's history.  He's probably my favorite designer of all roleplaying games this side of Greg Gordon. I have zero doubt we will be remembering Mearls and James Wyatt alongside Jon Tweet, Frank Mentzer, Monte Cook, and Tom Moldvay as innovators on the original design.




* ...and me! Although I'm nobody special.

Quote from: Abyssal MawBut Mike's ideas about roleplaying games and his design skills predate and outshine anything those numbskulls at the forge could ever come with by several thousand degrees (with the possible exception of Jared Sorensen, who is awesome, but designs a bit too far out of the mainstream for most peoples tastes.)

Speaking of which what do you think Adkison has him working on?

EDIT:  To wit WTF do you think 'Project Donut' is.

Quote from: blakkieSpeaking of which what do you think Adkison has him working on?

EDIT:  To wit WTF do you think 'Project Donut' is.

Maybe it's a space game of some sort? I dunno. Whatever it is, I get the idea it will be something new the way Everway was new.

Ok, well, it still reads like you were playing a minis game. Explain that.

I mean, if this is what I wanted, couldn't I just play the D&D minis game and add some ad-lib Roleplaying?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOk, well, it still reads like you were playing a minis game. Explain that.

I mean, if this is what I wanted, couldn't I just play the D&D minis game and add some ad-lib Roleplaying?

RPGPundit

It reads like that because (as Jong said) it's a mechanical demo. The game  hasn't been released.

I think a lot of it also has to do with it being a new system. Play reports aren't trying to tell stories, they're trying to showcase mechanics. Six months from now people will be playing the adventure and saying "my dwarf slammed the kobold in the chest, driving him back, and letting me fill the hole" instead of "I used my At Will ability of Tides of Iron (to hit vs. Fort.) to do 1d10+4 damage and force him back 1 square. It also lets me move into that square if I choose, so I did."

Quote from: SpikeIt's strategy that should never be that simple.

Isn't strategy diminished when most of the player resources are reset to full at the start of each encounter?

If the game is only about a serial series of relatively unrelated encounters then probably. But that's more a senario design problem than anything.

P.S. There are also daily resets.

Quote from: HaffrungIsn't strategy diminished when most of the player resources are reset to full at the start of each encounter?

Nope. Because from what I played, not everything resets. For example, surges don't reset, and neither do hit points. (You can *spend* surges in between encounters). The daily power (which is the most powerful) also doesn't reset. The cleric ability to heal can only be used twice during an encounter.

If you blow through your good stuff at the beginning of an adventure you could end up overwhelmed at the end.