Quote from: RPGPunditIt sounds like you had fun and all, I don't deny that you did, but here's the thing: If you hadn't specified that the game you were playing was D&D, I would have assumed you weren't playing an RPG at all.  Read your post forgetting any specific detail that its a D&D RPG you are playing, and it sounds like you are describing some kind of miniatures wargame.

I mean, is it still an RPG at all? Do you roleplay in it? Or is the roleplaying just meaningless fluff meant to cover up and provide transition from one "tactical encounter" to the next?

RPGPundit

Well, keep in mind it was a mechanical demo that was designed to only showcase the game mechanics. The players got pre-generated characters, and they were the same characters that were used in the delve and the other preview. And despite all that, they still did some roleplaying at my tables.

Is it still D&D? It undoubtably is! And it made me want to use it for a real campaign, where players would have control over making their own characters. I can see how this is going to work in a real campaign, and it's exciting.

I see it this way: D&D already has such things as at-will abilities, if you consider the melee attack as an at-will ability.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambI read on another site that six 1st-level PCs were beating the holy Hell out of dozens of zombies in one encounter. In 3e, we'd never see that happen.

You must be joking.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYou must be joking.

Well, it depends. If the zombies were "minions", then a group could indeed plow through a bunch of them. But usually minions are only one part of an encounter. There might be a group of 2 or 3 tough zombies which have upwards 27-36 hit points and some really strong attacks, and then maybe a horde of 4-8  of 'minion' zombies that basically die after taking a single hit. You toss them all out on the battlefield during the encounter.

The cool thing is you get to see 7-12 enemy figures on the battlefield, for a real "zombie swarm" experience. Some of the zombies you could shake off quickly, and then some zombies would be really tough.

And nobody bitch slapped a dragon. That dragon slaughtered more adventurers this weekend.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, it depends. If the zombies were "minions", then a group could indeed plow through a bunch of them. But usually minions are only one part of an encounter. There might be a group of 2 or 3 tough zombies which have upwards 27-36 hit points and some really strong attacks, and then maybe a horde of 4-8  of 'minion' zombies that basically die after taking a single hit. You toss them all out on the battlefield during the encounter.

The cool thing is you get to see 7-12 enemy figures on the battlefield, for a real "zombie swarm" experience. Some of the zombies you could shake off quickly, and then some zombies would be really tough.

And nobody bitch slapped a dragon. That dragon slaughtered more adventurers this weekend.

No, I meant that it's pretty poor play if six 1st level 3.x adventurers can't take on about two dozen humanoid zombies, so long as the situation isn't rigged against them. Undead CRs are notoriously wonky in 3.x, and zombies in particular have high CRs despite being pretty shitty. If 4th has reduced the slog to do so though, that's good news.

Since it was only a young level 4 black dragon, and it killed a lot of PCs, I don't see that as being different from previous editions, other than the fact that everything has super inflated hitpoint totals.

I may just house rule that everything has 1/10 its listed 4E hitpoints.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, keep in mind it was a mechanical demo that was designed to only showcase the game mechanics. The players got pre-generated characters, and they were the same characters that were used in the delve and the other preview. And despite all that, they still did some roleplaying at my tables.

I'm not too enthusiastic about 4e but yeah, I think people on this thread are unfair when they expect a convention game/demo to be about anything but combat. It's been a tradition to first highlight what your system can do in combat.

However, I have a question for you, Abyssal: did you get to run other form of contests/challenges?

Are there rules for social challenges? Chases? Also, did you get a look at the grappling rules? Also, was there at least a single thing you did not like? Because it seems overwhelmingly positive.

BTW, thanks for sharing these reports, man. We're a tough crowd but I'm sure I'm not the only one who really appreciates it!

Cadwallon is described as "a tactical role-playing game".  I think D&D 4e sounds like it's in the same category that you'd but Cadwallon into.

Quote from: RPGPunditIt sounds like you had fun and all, I don't deny that you did, but here's the thing: If you hadn't specified that the game you were playing was D&D, I would have assumed you weren't playing an RPG at all.  Read your post forgetting any specific detail that its a D&D RPG you are playing, and it sounds like you are describing some kind of miniatures wargame.

Yeah, I thought the same. I don't use miniatures or "squares," so how do the mechanics translate to a game that doesn't use these things?

In all seriousness, I think that GamesWorkshop's Lord of The Rings Strategy Battle Game is another strong contender. It's astonishing to see how real world tactics emerge from such a simple game system. Although in all fairness, D&D has a broader range of creatures, powers and fights to simulate so it's not surprising that it's got more rules too.

Quote from: Consonant DudeI'm not too enthusiastic about 4e but yeah, I think people on this thread are unfair when they expect a convention game/demo to be about anything but combat. It's been a tradition to first highlight what your system can do in combat.

However, I have a question for you, Abyssal: did you get to run other form of contests/challenges?

Are there rules for social challenges? Chases? Also, did you get a look at the grappling rules? Also, was there at least a single thing you did not like? Because it seems overwhelmingly positive.

BTW, thanks for sharing these reports, man. We're a tough crowd but I'm sure I'm not the only one who really appreciates it!

I can handle it!

Did I get to run other contests and challenges?...that answer would be no. But I know there was a negotiation in Escape from Sembia. Unfortunately, I neither read it or played it. I *might* have access to the mod ( I will check around so I can read it. If I *can * get back to you, I will. (If I am allowed to).  There is probably much better info on this at Enworld and the WOTC boards because other people played this.)

Chases I'm not sure.

Grapples I'm not sure, but I did hear about some monsters having special abilities that allowed them to grapple. Chris Perkins was at the R&D meeting talking about a battle with a Bugbear Strangler that had another PC grappled. When he came up to attack it, it was able to use the grappled PC as a "human shield". It was a good story. I *don't* think I could have grappled a PC with the black dragon in Scalegloom hall, or at least I didn't have the rules for it. And there was a nice pool of water in that room, too. My favorite Black Dragon tactic is to grapple a PC and drag it underwater. I wasn't sure if this was possible under 4e, and in any case, wouldn't know how to use the rules for grappling or drowning.  

Falling was interesting because it was 1d10 damage per 10'.

I did see (and use) the rules for a bull rush. It's pretty simple. A bull rush is just an attack against fortitude. (as in, instead of AC, you attack fortitude). It does not trigger an Opportunity Attack. If you win, you push an enemy one square, and you have the option of taking up that square.

Was there stuff I didn't like? Nothing like.. infuriated me, but I thought the dragon had some powers that were a bit confusing. It had a darkness power that cut off line of sight  from the PCs, and blinded anyone within 2 squares. That seemed neat, but I wasn't sure how to adjudicate attacks. There are rules for concealment (there's no percentage miss chance anymore, it's just a straight -2 or -5) and cover (which is also a straight -2 or -5).

So I ended up shutting the darkness off after a single round, and concentrating on just mauling the characters, because that was fun. I'm frankly a bit unsure what to do with the paladin's divine challenge if he marks a creature and then avoids combat. I want clarification because I think that the mark should go away as soon as the paladin stops attacking.

I want to know more about how skills work. The skills chapter was checked out to Preview judges at the convention but I didn't spend enough time looking at it. My general impression was that skills cover more, and you can attempt things unskilled. So if you have the thievery skill that covers opening locks, disabling traps, and pickpocketing. And if you have atheltics, it covered things like jumping on top of the sarcophagi in the kobolds lair and climbing the platforms. There was a general perception score instead of search and spot.

Quote from: JohnnyWannabeYeah, I thought the same. I don't use miniatures or "squares," so how do the mechanics translate to a game that doesn't use these things?

This I couldn't tell you. In a combat scene, I really couldn't imagine playing D&D4 without them. (Then again, I could barely imagine using 3e without miniatures).

On the plus side, miniatures and terrain (dungeon tiles) and battlemaps are cheaper and more accessible now than they have ever been.

Without maps and miniatures,combat will be confusing in 4.E,I´m sure!Brilliant marketing move WotC!

Quote from: Abyssal MawSo I ended up shutting the darkness off after a single round, and concentrating on just mauling the characters, because that was fun. I'm frankly a bit unsure what to do with the paladin's divine challenge if he marks a creature and then avoids combat. I want clarification because I think that the mark should go away as soon as the paladin stops attacking.

I agree.  Just looking at 4e as a tactical game, I think the Paladin's marking power will frequently not be used by players in the way the game designers were intending.  (ie. As a way of killing monsters with high AC through attrition).

I think I read on EN World that someone from WotC said the Paladin was going to be slightly changed in the final version of the rules -- although they didn't say in what way.

Quote from: Abyssal MawDid I get to run other contests and challenges?...that answer would be no. But I know there was a negotiation in Escape from Sembia. Unfortunately, I neither read it or played it. I *might* have access to the mod ( I will check around so I can read it. If I can get back to you, I will. Probably better info on this at Enworld and the WOTC boards because other people played this.)

I'll try to find information but it's been sparse. I think everybody is (legitimately) focusing on good ol' sword-swinging and spell-slinging at this point.

If you find more, please do get back with this information!

Thanks for the other answers. The way the saves now work (like AC) allows new streamlining that's interesting, such as the bull rush. I kinda like the possibilities!

Quote from: ConanMKSince it was only a young level 4 black dragon, and it killed a lot of PCs, I don't see that as being different from previous editions, other than the fact that everything has super inflated hitpoint totals.

I may just house rule that everything has 1/10 its listed 4E hitpoints.

That'll cause troubles with the healing surges though, since it means some characters will be surging for 1 hit point, or for more than their hit point total.

Quote from: Abyssal MawGrapples I'm not sure, but I did hear about some monsters having special abilities that allowed them to grapple. Chris Perkins was at the R&D meeting talking about a battle with a Bugbear Strangler that had another PC grappled. When he came up to attack it, it was able to use the grappled PC as a "human shield". It was a good story. I *don't* think I could have grappled a PC with the black dragon in Scalegloom hall, or at least I didn't have the rules for it. And there was a nice pool of water in that room, too. My favorite Black Dragon tactic is to grapple a PC and drag it underwater. I wasn't sure if this was possible under 4e, and in any case, wouldn't know how to use the rules for grappling or drowning.  

From what I've heard, grappling uses an attack roll vs. AC. If it hits you immobilize the other guy. He can break it with Athletics. There was another way to break it too, but I don't remember offhand what it was.