My Short review: 4th Edition is awesome and you can all suck it! :emot-rock:

I'll post a longer review later.

I am NOT a playtester. I should clarify. But I was running the preview module, Scalegloom Hall at DDXP. Make of that what you will.! (and allow me to personally invite some of you to join the RPGA and the Living Forgotten Realms).

I got my first real 4E experience by playing at the delve on Friday morning, and then running the LFR Preview mod (which was more of a demo, but had some fun roleplaying moments that I don't want to spoil). I had some advance practice with the 4e combat chapter and some notes in the mod itself. Combat chapters were individually checked out to us judges and checked back in at the convention, so don't bother asking me about the rules. All the good stuff is posted at Enworld, and on the WOTC boards. Players got to take home their character sheets, and if you have any of the new minis, they have 4e monster stats on the cards.

But I have some clarifications for the Rogue thread of a few days ago:

push pull and slide: Some of the PC's powers were able to force an enemy to move a number of squares. None of these provoke anyone's opportunity attacks, but they are pretty good for other effects, inlcuding bumping a dude off a ledge or into a tactically advantageous or disadvantageous position. There was a fighter power called "Tide of Iron" which was really cool, because it would force a combatant backwards one square and allow the fighter to advance 1 square as part of an attack. At one point in one of my games, the dwarf fighter was battling a massed group of kobolds on a staircase, and was forcing them to give ground as he drove them backwards up the staircase. When one got to close, he bumped the kobold off the edge of the stairs. It was awesome.

(If you DO try and bump someone off of something they get a saving throw.)

This game is extremely lively, even with 1st level PCs. Nobody will deny that. Characters are able to run around, get knocked down, get back up, use powers, swing on ropes, run from rolling boulders, and leap over slime-pits. It was constantly cool stuff happening in the game at the tactical game-level. I can't wait to try these rules out in a real campaign. Because of the way surges work, there's more adventuring and less resting. You get to play more and have to manage fewer resources (although you still have to manage those.. daily powers and surges, especially).
 
It is still a cool tactical game, and the tactics are the kind that won't require you to know everything in the rules. I love how 3e rewards experts (see the thread about AoOs and interrupting spellcasting earlier), but this game will reward clever players who don't necessarily know obscure rules.

Also, characters can die. I killed off 4 characters this weekend in 4e. And it was fun as hell. I don' think the nostalgiasts or the guys who still have a 1990s mentality are going to get it, but I don't care, really. Save your slurs. People are going to be playing the hell out of this game.

Shout me down if you want! This was the best gaming weekend I've had this year**.




** -- I DM'd 7 slots. Each one was 5 hours, (although they usually run shorter).

Sounds great, your enthusiasm for the game is infectious.

I'm getting steadily more excited by 4E, and parts of your review are synching nicely with with my expectations. The Tide of Iron tactic you've described is exactly what I was thinking of when reading Kathra's character sheets earlier today. What really stood out was that even if a character fails to send an opponent falling to his doom he's still landed a solid hit and shaved off some hit points.

It's these kinds of situational bonuses applied *in addition* to the regular attack mechanic that's turning me on to the system in a big way.

I think, here we part ways.  I'm glad you had a good time, and I'm still really curious to try a demo, but my default idea of D&D doesn't include Eladrin having Teleport as a racial ability, enemies taking damage just for not attacking a Paladin, and a host of increasingly difficult-to-explain, over-the-top metagamey powers and tactics I have to try to work into my story.  And I don't want to have to expand outside the 3 core books to get my half-orcs, barbarians, bards, and other missing stuff.  There are a few bits I like in there (the defense values sound nice), but too many more I don't.  Maybe it'll be different, and I hope to get into a demo soon, but it doesn't sound like my sort of game right now.  Hell, maybe it means I've graduated into Junior Grognard status.  But nearly everything to me screams over-the-top, MMORPG-derivative, everyone-gets-a-shiny-medal Exalted wannabe.  Know what, though?  You've GM'd it--I haven't.  Perhaps I'm missing something here, or maybe, as you say, I'm stuck in the 90s and just won't ever get it.

Let me ask you this:  is there still room in the game for me to run a low-powered, low-level campaign consisting of a pig farmer conscript, a drunken mage who can hardly cast a cantrip on a bad day, and a rogue who can't seem to pick anyone's pocket, let alone deal out tremendous parcels of damage?  Or will this low-level, novice group now inevitably have the crazy amazing powers of a team of well-trained, wushu-loving strike team?  In other words, is just the one "special powers/hero" style of play the only one supported by the game?  Can non-anime characters still apply?

Thanks for the comments!

You know what, Zachary? I have an impression, that this game is much easier and more fun in DMing part, but not so impressive in delivering player content... so you might be both right.

Yes, I too, like Zachary, will part ways with you on this one, AM. Don't get me wrong, however; anytime you want to play, anywhere, any game - even 4e, and I'm at your table. But I can't follow D&D through it's mid-life crisis.

But I give you all the bet wishes I can - you seem to be enjoying the game and I hope you have years of fun with it.

Quote from: James J SkachYes, I too, like Zachary, will part ways with you on this one, AM. Don't get me wrong, however; anytime you want to play, anywhere, any game - even 4e, and I'm at your table. But I can't follow D&D through it's mid-life crisis.

Yeah, man, let me echo this, AM--I think you're cool as hell, and don't want this to get in the way of our cordial BSing here.  At the end of the day, as long as you're having fun, that's what matters.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstYeah, man, let me echo this, AM--I think you're cool as hell, and don't want this to get in the way of our cordial BSing here.  At the end of the day, as long as you're having fun, that's what matters.

I sincerely wish more people would adopt this attitude.

If there´s people who warrant it, like AM, we can be nice.

AM, can you say anything against the tactical hollowness argument?
How is it different from my Ruby Knight/Crusader, who´s powerful, but could be played by a Javascript?

Quote from: SettembriniIf there´s people who warrant it, like AM, we can be nice.

Amusing, given the incoherent group attacks you've been making against those who are interested in 4E lately.

Maybe you should post a list of those you consider exceptions to your rule of early adopters being stupid. Put it in your sig or something.

Quote from: Abyssal MawShout me down if you want!  

You damn Kool-Aid drinker! Stop being a wuss and jump aboard the hater bandwagon.

Seanchai

It occurs to me that the increased degree of reliance upon the use of maps and miniatures is very deliberate on the part of Wizards of the Coast.  It's not a secret that the D&D Miniature Game is very profitable, and it shouldn't be shocking to consider that the bosses at the company would desire to find a way to increase that profitability by slaving the RPG to the Miniature Game and this is what became of such a direction (and directive).  I still can't see how or why the obstensible target audience for this new edition would bother with playing it when there are far more convenient alternatives with superior network externalities and media utility than a tabletop (psuedo-)RPG.

The new model: Games Workshop.

D&D is a miniatures brand first. The D&D RPG is strictly something for you to do with the miniatures.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstLet me ask you this:  is there still room in the game for me to run a low-powered, low-level campaign consisting of a pig farmer conscript, a drunken mage who can hardly cast a cantrip on a bad day, and a rogue who can't seem to pick anyone's pocket, let alone deal out tremendous parcels of damage?  Or will this low-level, novice group now inevitably have the crazy amazing powers of a team of well-trained, wushu-loving strike team?  In other words, is just the one "special powers/hero" style of play the only one supported by the game?  Can non-anime characters still apply?

Thanks for the comments!

Honestly, I think the pig farmer, and the mage who can't cast, and the incompetent rogue won't fit in  with 4th edition. I can't apologize for that, though. They hardly fit in with 3rd edition. Maybe True 20?

Quote from: KrakaJakThe new model: Games Workshop.

D&D is a miniatures brand first. The D&D RPG is strictly something for you to do with the miniatures.

Don't forget Wizards of the Coast's flagship product isn't D&D -- it's Magic: The Gathering.  

I can see how turning D&D into Advanced D&D Miniatures makes sense for them as a company.

Quote from: Abyssal MawHonestly, I think the pig farmer, and the mage who can't cast, and the incompetent rogue won;t fit in  with 4th edition. I can;t apologize for that, though. They hardly fit in with 3rd edition. Maybe True 20?

I was just posting this in another thread -- 4e looks like it's intended for fantasy action hero gaming.  If you don't want to play an action hero, it might not be the best fit.