4E: Mark on the Beast

Bradford C. Walker · March 01, 2008, 07:55:16 PM

Quote from: John MorrowI think I've reached the point, after reading about several new mechanics like this in 4E, where I'm questioning whether I'm even going to buy the core books for 4E. If I wanted to play an MMORPG, I'd play an MMORPG.

Have a seat. I put on a pot of coffee. This point has a nice vantage from which folks can observe what's going on. ;-) (i.e. Me Too)

Blackleaf · March 02, 2008, 12:09:51 AM

From someone at D&DX

QuoteI just played a 4E preview at D&D Experience this morning and the "marking" ability was very powerful - it was what enabled my party to beat a very tough (don't know the age) huge black dragon.

Our paladin kept her mark on the dragon and it kept taking 8 damage every time it attacked another character, which was what happened in most rounds. We were joking that the best thing that could happen to us would be if the paladin died and the dragon couldn't attack him anymore and had to automatically take 8 damage everytime it attacked. (Presumably marks don't survive player deaths, but that wasn't clear.) Anyhow, that 8 damage per round was by far the most reliable damage we were doing to the dragon, which had very high AC and saves or whatever they call saving throw defenses now. The DM was generous by not being real aggressive about targeting the paladin or it might have been a TPK. Pretty strange outcome to kill a dragon through what are essentially aggro incentives.

Also, I think we played the marking rules a little incorrectly as I'm pretty sure some of our opponents were simultaneously marked by two of our players.

Zachary The First · March 02, 2008, 12:16:01 AM

I wonder what the rationale/explanation was for the 8 damage, especially if the Paladin wasn't in direct contact w/ Mssr. Dragon each round. Or was it something that just happened?

blakkie · March 02, 2008, 12:20:41 AM

From the comments by others that played that senario the GM was a total puffball...or drunk/stoned.

Blackleaf · March 02, 2008, 12:26:49 AM

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI wonder what the rationale/explanation was for the 8 damage, especially if the Paladin wasn't in direct contact w/ Mssr. Dragon each round. Or was it something that just happened?

That's the Paladin's special ability -- Divine Challenge. If the Dragon attacks anyone else it takes 8 damage. So apparently that's what it chose to do.*

Yeah, that's some good Monty Haul DM'ing there.

blakkie · March 02, 2008, 12:37:32 AM

There is a comment over an ENWorld about in his estimation the Ranger, he happened to be playing, was the only one that had a sniff of a hope of hitting the dragon. In the entire encounter he only landed one hit before they retreated because they knew they were totally screwed (one PC died in the process).

For them the dragon got the surprise and openned with Darkness then acid breath AOE, which did 15HP/PC up front and something like 5HP per round till you saved. Those numbers sound like a smallish dragon to me? Unless they really gimped dragons.

EDIT: Oh, and there was something else he figured was Dragon Fear that really screwed the party over.

Zachary The First · March 02, 2008, 12:40:34 AM

Quote from: StuartThat's the Paladin's special ability -- Divine Challenge. If the Dragon attacks anyone else it takes 8 damage. So apparently that's what it chose to do.*

Yeah, that's some good Monty Haul DM'ing there.

I get that, but what? You mark it, it doesn't attack you, so each round Zeus throws down a minor lightning bolt? Or its just mystically damaged? Or it is so distracted by wanting to fight you that it gets sloppy?

What happens if you use it on a kobold skirmisher, avoid fighting it (running around, Benny Hill-style), and everyone else in your party just defends/avoids and waits for the kobold to die from not fighting you? Can you do that?

blakkie · March 02, 2008, 12:52:16 AM

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI get that, but what? You mark it, it doesn't attack you, so each round Zeus throws down a minor lightning bolt? Or its just mystically damaged? Or it is so distracted by wanting to fight you that it gets sloppy?

It's maaaa-gjick! :deflated: I personally feel a little sympathy for Stuart on this one.

Although it helps if you use the new and improved name for HP, Shlongitude. By being a whimp and ignoring the Paladin's holy challenge you lose Shlongitude. :keke:

Or it's like Holy Fire Shield but over all your friends instead on yourself. Or some sort of other magic crap thing. Bah.

James McMurray · March 02, 2008, 01:56:49 AM

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI get that, but what? You mark it, it doesn't attack you, so each round Zeus throws down a minor lightning bolt? Or its just mystically damaged? Or it is so distracted by wanting to fight you that it gets sloppy?

What happens if you use it on a kobold skirmisher, avoid fighting it (running around, Benny Hill-style), and everyone else in your party just defends/avoids and waits for the kobold to die from not fighting you? Can you do that?

He won't die from not fighting. It only triggers if he attacks someone else. He's free to run away, surrender, or do pretty much anything but swing his sword at someone.

beejazz · March 02, 2008, 03:06:14 AM

Quote from: SpikeI find it interesting that you can't have different characters mark the same dude.

I can see the intent behind it but it seems like too metagamy a ruling. In character you have to combatants tag teaming one guy, he can't ignore either one, but he can't focus on both at the same time, classic double team.

Here is a mechanic to make 'ganging up one someone' mean something specific (if you actually, you know, use teamwork) and they metagamed it away.

Quote from: StuartI think if you have to remain adjacent (if meleeing) or in line of sight (if an archer) then I could see how this makes sense. If you can mark a target and then retreat around a corner -- leaving the opponent with a penalty against other attackers right in front of it... that wouldn't make sense.

It really depends who gamey they've made it.

And I think keeping track of this for large battles will be another thing to incrementally slow things down.

You two together might be on to something awesome. Let's nix flanking and attacks of opportunity and port in an altered form of this marked thing...

...You can mark one person, so long as they are within melee reach. If the marked foe attacks someone who isn't you, you get an attack against them. You can only make one such attack per round, and you must chose your target during your turn.

Oh, and lets use this rule in a low-level IH game with SAGA's skill system ported in, no iterative attacks, and the warlock from Complete Arcane as the magic user.

I know, I know, slightly off topic... but this is one of those rules that needed to be fixed.

Malleus Arianorum · March 02, 2008, 03:34:05 AM

QuoteWe were joking that the best thing that could happen to us would be if the paladin died and the dragon couldn't attack him anymore and had to automatically take 8 damage everytime it attacked.

That's not a laughing matter:mad: -- Plagiarizing Castlevania II: Simon's Quest is a serious crime.

Ian Absentia · March 03, 2008, 12:33:03 AM

Quote from: StuartFrom someone at D&DX
QuoteOur paladin kept her mark on the dragon and it kept taking 8 damage every time it attacked another character, which was what happened in most rounds.

...snip...

Anyhow, that 8 damage per round was by far the most reliable damage we were doing to the dragon, which had very high AC and saves or whatever they call saving throw defenses now. The DM was generous by not being real aggressive about targeting the paladin or it might have been a TPK. Pretty strange outcome to kill a dragon through what are essentially aggro incentives.

You'd think that simple operant conditioning would have an effect on how the dragon conducted itself in combat:

Attack the Halfling Rogue - Ow! 8 HP damage.
Attack the Dwarf Fighter - Ow! 8 HP damage.
Attack the Elf Sorcerer - Ow! 8 HP damage.
Attack the Human Paladin - ...hunh. No damage. Keep attacking the paladin!

!i!

jibbajibba · March 03, 2008, 07:35:52 AM

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou'd think that simple operant conditioning would have an effect on how the dragon conducted itself in combat:

Attack the Halfling Rogue - Ow! 8 HP damage.
Attack the Dwarf Fighter - Ow! 8 HP damage.
Attack the Elf Sorcerer - Ow! 8 HP damage.
Attack the Human Paladin - ...hunh. No damage. Keep attacking the paladin!

!i!

Yes but role playing the dragon becomes an exercise in running him like a script. This is a genius intelligence monster. If it realises , which it ought to, that it can totally eliminate the hobbit thief in 2 rounds for a cost of 16 hp that might be a good spend. Or better still eliminate the Cleric and prevent the additional healing. Of course this all then becomes about the Meta-game and how well the Dragon read the combat move options for each class.
Me I would have the dragon open a conversation in Hobbit with the halfling offering his pick of my treasure horde if he just backstabs that pesky Paladin. If fact I think a few attacks directed at the Hobbit if he didn't might convince him even faster.

Ian Absentia · March 03, 2008, 05:07:33 PM

Quote from: jibbajibbaThis is a genius intelligence monster. If it realises , which it ought to, that it can totally eliminate the hobbit thief in 2 rounds for a cost of 16 hp that might be a good spend. Or better still eliminate the Cleric and prevent the additional healing.

So, the dragon would test the shock it gets from each PC, sort of like a rat testing an electrical grid in a feeding cage. Only this "rat" is intelligent enough to accurately gauge how bad the hurt is in relation to how much it'll take to off each individual PC. That's kind of nifty. Totally meta-gamed, but nifty. It pays to be a genius-level monster.

!i!

Blackleaf · March 03, 2008, 09:00:26 PM

If the Dragon was smart enough, would it know about Paladins and what they can do? Would it be able to recognize a Paladin? Does the effects of the Paladin's mark produce something visible that the Dragon would recognize?

(I'm being serious -- if a monster is marked by the Paladin, should they know what's going on and respond accordingly? So the DM wouldn't let monsters get 'tricked' into a Paladin Mark attrition attack.)