Quote from: Seanchai;388069Nope. However, believing that you can really "become" the character is right up there with thinking you're Napoleon.

There is a pretty big difference between saying "I have a pretty firm grasp of this person (fictitious or not), and can view the world from their perspective and make decisions that they would probably make" and saying "I can become another person."

Quote from: GnomeWorks;388083There is a pretty big difference between saying "I have a pretty firm grasp of this person (fictitious or not), and can view the world from their perspective and make decisions that they would probably make" and saying "I can become another person."

I agree that there is, but I just think that the first thing is well within the bounds of 4E or any other game.

I love how quickly 4e fanatics have started resorting to Forgist rhetoric.  Really just makes the connection all that much more clear.

Quote from: J Arcane;388085I love how quickly 4e fanatics have started resorting to Forgist rhetoric.  Really just makes the connection all that much more clear.

But that's the opposite of true. It's actually the detractors that have enthusiastically jumped on things like capitalized terms (Immersion with a capital I), self-glorifying theories (disassociative mechanics!), and a hostile hold-the-line approach against the commoners who haven't yet grown to appreciate the self-nominated taste-makers.

Quote from: Benoist;388081Now, with hindsight, the symptoms he was showing were reminiscent of a schizophrenic person off his meds. That's probably what it was.

In other words, he was mentally ill. People who believe they can "become" their character to any real degree are mentally ill. You can only go so deep with "immersion," regardless of the game or circumstances.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;388089In other words, he was mentally ill. People who believe they can "become" their character to any real degree are mentally ill. You can only go so deep with "immersion," regardless of the game or circumstances.

Seanchai

You know there's a difference between what we are talking about and my schizophrenic example.
You are a disingenuous piece of shit. As usual.

Quote from: RandallS;388077All RPGs have some dissociative mechanics, but some RPGs have more than others.

That is true. However, as "immersion" and "dissociative" are subjective, any attempts to define a game as more immersive or more dissociative than any other in any objective sense are doomed to failure. As you yourself note, some things bother some folks but don't bother others.

So, again, I'm coming back to: What's the point of all this talk?

Seanchai

Quote from: GnomeWorks;388083There is a pretty big difference between saying "I have a pretty firm grasp of this person (fictitious or not), and can view the world from their perspective and make decisions that they would probably make" and saying "I can become another person."

Yes.

But "immersion" seems to be the later. Immersion doesn't seem to be simply making choices, as yourself, based on your idea of what a character would do. It seems to mean being so engrossed in your character that you make choices for him or her almost automatically on a subconscious level.

That is much, much closer to "becoming" the character.

Seanchai

Quote from: Benoist;388090You are a disingenuous piece of shit. As usual.

And you think you're better than Shaz with stranger on the tram why again? I know you're pissed that your example was used against you, but a tad of decorum

Your behavior aside, you don't know what was wrong with the gentlemen in question. He might not be schizophrenic at all. What we know is a) he was behaving in-character in an extreme way and b) you felt that extreme behavior belied a mental illness.

I do, too. I believe that, despite claims to the contrary, healthy people cannot become so engrossed in a role that a distraction is too great for them compensate for.

Seanchai

This just in from Shawn-tea: really good actors are mentally ill.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;388096This just in from Shawn-tea: really good actors are mentally ill.

Indeed.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;388084I agree that there is, but I just think that the first thing is well within the bounds of 4E or any other game.

I disagree.

In 3.5 and earlier, denizens of the fictional world can easily discuss their abilities. Some aspects - caster level, spell level, etc - are harder to discuss in-character than others, but if one assumes that the language exists to handle these discussions (IMC, magic-specific languages have such terminology, while normal languages don't), it's not so far-fetched.

In 4e, the number of mental contortions you have to work through to have an in-character discussion regarding what an individual is capable of are ridiculous. You can do it, I'm aware, and some folks seem to manage; but the idea of encounter and daily martial abilities (among other things) is just too bizarre, for me.

Part of the problem being run into here, I think, is that the statement "Game X has dissociative mechanics" is either a true or false statement - are the mechanics tied intrinsically to what is going on in the fiction, or not? - while how disruptive dissociation is to immersion varies from individual to individual. Apparently some folk manage to get by just fine with 4e; some people, myself included, do not.

Quote from: SeanchaiBut "immersion" seems to be the later. Immersion doesn't seem to be simply making choices, as yourself, based on your idea of what a character would do. It seems to mean being so engrossed in your character that you make choices for him or her almost automatically on a subconscious level.

As has been stated, I think you're being disingenuous.

There is a difference between assuming the mental life of another individual and believing you are that individual. You can adopt the mental state of someone else while being fully aware of the fact that it is an adoption, that you are not actually that individual, just acting wholly as though you were.

The difference is that someone who does this, if you tell them to knock it off and get out of character, can do so. A mentally ill individual, such as you have been describing, probably wouldn't, and sounds like they wouldn't even recognize they were assuming a role.

There seems to be a pretty clear distinction there, at least to me.

Funny, because I've been told by others elsewhere (who happen to be hardcore immersionists) that if I'm just acting, I'm not really 'playing the character.'

Hm.  :hmm:

Gamers use the same words to mean different things and can't agree on terms. Film at 11.

I know what immersion means to me, and I know some games make it easier than others. I've no real opinion on how good 4e is at it (although it looks like it would be bad) because I don't like the game for other reasons and have consequently never played it.

Quote from: Seanchai;388095I do, too. I believe that, despite claims to the contrary, healthy people cannot become so engrossed in a role that a distraction is too great for them compensate for.
Seanchai

So here Seanchai has essentially proved my point.  He thinks someone who immerses into a character to the point where 4e's level of dissociative mechanics impedes that immersion is either lying about it, or clinically insane.

He believes the way he does because he does not immerse or perhaps cannot immerse to the level where such dissociative mechanics rip you right out of your immersion.  He doesn't realize it's not a question of kind, but one of degree.

He's never had the chance to be on an actual movie set.  You get an actor doing a serious dramatic scene, and no one makes a sound, no one even gets in their line of sight, because at that level of immersion it is extremely easy to lose it.  We're not talking about anything even remotely equal to that level in roleplaying, but for some the level of immersion they attain is higher then the one Seanchai reaches.  It doesn't make either one insane, it just makes one person immerse more.

Seanchai's starting to sound like those guys on a roleplaying server for a mmog who can't understand why everyone puts their Knight named Incredible Hulk on ignore, or claims he understands perfectly, but thinks everyone who does is insane or a dick.