I don't think the GM handing out 'wish list' items in 4e is the best analogy to the obesity scooter, tho--a DM in D&D who consistently put out magic items nobody can use is just a tool, after all. The wish list is just basically 'don't be a tool' advice, where some of the work is taken of the GM's hands. This is a natural consequence of the massive verbiage and narrow specifications of the character classes, the GM simply can't be expected to keep up with all the words, so a wish list narrows down his reading.

I think minions of 4e are a better example.

In RPGs, you can build your character to kill lots of weak monsters if you want. In 4e, the minions come pre-easily killable, no actual skill/knowledge/intent by the player necessary, so it's a 'facilitate the fat, stupid, and lazy' accommodation like the obesity schooter often is.

Quote from: Doom;387633I don't think the GM handing out 'wish list' items in 4e is the best analogy to the obesity scooter, tho--a DM in D&D who consistently put out magic items nobody can use is just a tool, after all.

In older editions of D&D, it was common for GMs to determine what magical items were present in a particular hoard by rolling on tables to randomly generate them.

Traditionally, a DM in D&D who consistently puts out magic items nobody can use is just a DM who by pure random chance has happened to roll a series of numbers that didn't provide items useful to their particular party.

Does rolling a particular series of number on some dice make someone a tool? I hope not.

Quote from: bombshelter13;387634In older editions of D&D, it was common for GMs to determine what magical items were present in a particular hoard by rolling on tables to randomly generate them.

Traditionally, a DM in D&D who consistently puts out magic items nobody can use is just a DM who by pure random chance has happened to roll a series of numbers that didn't provide items useful to their particular party.

Does rolling a particular series of number on some dice make someone a tool? I hope not.

True dat.

The odds of rolling up a magical glaive-guisarme are exactly zero.  It's not even on the Miscellaneous Weapons chart.  There is only one weapon that would not be very common for a character to take a proficiency in, and that is the Trident (military fork) +3.  15% odds for getting Armour & Shields, 10% odds for getting Swords.  About a quarter of the time, you will get something useful, because Magic Users (and Monks) are the only ones that can't wear any armour, and Thieves, Rangers and Druids are the only ones with restrictions.  20% Potions, 15% Scrolls, and 5% Rings, so another 40% chance of getting an item someone can use (in a reasonably diverse party). 5% chance of getting something that generally only Magic Users can employ on the Rods, Staves and Wands table.  15% total for getting one of the Miscellaneous Magic tables.  The explanatory paragraph below that even details why the odds are they way they are.  Magic Users get expendable stuff, everyone else gets durable items.

I know it happens sometimes; there are three treasure hoards in a row with nothing the party can use.  But the odds are they will have a good set of magic items by level 8 or 10.  So, the complaint about magic items is somewhat baffling to me, and I don't see what the problem is that needed fixing in this case.  That eversmoking bottle won't see daily use, but when you need some cover to escape an entire tribe of orcs and their ogre/giant leaders, nothing works better.

Quote from: StormBringer;387637I know it happens sometimes; there are three treasure hoards in a row with nothing the party can use.

The odds of there being nothing the party can use drop if the PCs have hirelings and/or henchmen along. Even if there is nothing the PCs can use in a horde, chances are a hireling or henchman could -- and giving a hireling or henchman a magic item is a great way to make them very loyal.

Quote from: StormBringer;387637True dat.

The odds of rolling up a magical glaive-guisarme are exactly zero.  It's not even on the Miscellaneous Weapons chart.  There is only one weapon that would not be very common for a character to take a proficiency in, and that is the Trident (military fork) +3.  15% odds for getting Armour & Shields, 10% odds for getting Swords.  About a quarter of the time, you will get something useful, because Magic Users (and Monks) are the only ones that can't wear any armour, and Thieves, Rangers and Druids are the only ones with restrictions.  20% Potions, 15% Scrolls, and 5% Rings, so another 40% chance of getting an item someone can use (in a reasonably diverse party). 5% chance of getting something that generally only Magic Users can employ on the Rods, Staves and Wands table.  15% total for getting one of the Miscellaneous Magic tables.  The explanatory paragraph below that even details why the odds are they way they are.  Magic Users get expendable stuff, everyone else gets durable items.

I know it happens sometimes; there are three treasure hoards in a row with nothing the party can use.  But the odds are they will have a good set of magic items by level 8 or 10.  So, the complaint about magic items is somewhat baffling to me, and I don't see what the problem is that needed fixing in this case.  That eversmoking bottle won't see daily use, but when you need some cover to escape an entire tribe of orcs and their ogre/giant leaders, nothing works better.

I had actually managed to avoid this thread.  Crap.

I almost never rolled for exact treasure.  But I used to use to roll for what you are talking about above; the type of stuff found.  And then I'd make a logical (based on where it is found) treasure set from there.

My whole internal quest with gaming has been to try to create as much an opportunity for in-game logic as possible.  This does not always preclude rolling for area specific encounters or treasure types, but it does preclude creatures ignoring possibly useful treasures.
It also includes a large amount (much larger than in the DMG) of misc/useful items.  I am the GM who places roasting pans of temperature control (+10% to cooking skills) and Evercoal, shirts and leggings of warmth, and scroll of the 'umbrella' cantrip.  
Because internal campaign logic is my weirdo holy grail.

The use or lack thereof of any given (non-weapon) magic item is entirely in the hands of the players.  If you cannot after consideration find a use for an item - even to use as a tool of assassination against another person - then you are a poor role player.

4e wishlists enforce bad play by DMs and players both, period.  There is no escaping this fact.

Yeah, I found the part about the "wish list" kinda wierd too. Last session, I got a magic +1 war pick since my character was using a pick (it also does a neat thing though, on a crit it pins the opponent to the floor via a magical "duplicate" of itself). I know the odds of randomly rolling one in the old system were astronomical, but then again, that's what magic weapon shops are/were for.

Still, its better in the "regular" game where you get a couple of item cards for actual magic items to choose from, instead of the RPGA "+1 magic weapon" where you just choose what it is.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;3876594e wishlists enforce bad play by DMs and players both, period.  There is no escaping this fact.

Well, that's one opinion.

I think wishlists are controversial because the people who are horrified by them see magic item acquisition as a major goal of the game. So of course if a character gets to kinda choose his own gear, that's as if the DM just hands him the "I win" button.

But if the game is not actually about magic item acquisition then wishlists are merely a factor of character development. So that argument is pretty easy to disregard.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;387662But if the game is not actually about magic item acquisition then wishlists are merely a factor of character development. So that argument is pretty easy to disregard.

Are you talking about "the game", 4e in general, or "the game", "a" game run by a GM in particular?
Are you saying that 4e is not about acquiring magic items?

Quote from: Benoist;387663Are you talking about "the game", 4e in general, or "the game", "a" game run by a GM in particular?
Are you saying that 4e is not about acquiring magic items?

It's the least magic-item dependent version I've seen. There's no "Can only be hit by magical weapons".

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;387662Well, that's one opinion.

I think wishlists are controversial because the people who are horrified by them see magic item acquisition as a major goal of the game. So of course if a character gets to kinda choose his own gear, that's as if the DM just hands him the "I win" button.

But if the game is not actually about magic item acquisition then wishlists are merely a factor of character development. So that argument is pretty easy to disregard.

In any game where the acquisition of treasure is a purported reward for the PC, or in any game where the treasure so acquired improves the ability of a player to succeed in that game, I'd see wishlists as a poorly designed mechanic, since players will search after these items.

But as I was expounding on above, especially in any Roleplaying game, mechanics that promote in-game logic promote immersion, and those that promote metagaming are the opposite.

Magic items wishlists are special because they promote metagaming on *2* seperate levels.  On the character level, the make the character look at what they want for their 'character build' development down the road, making goals more bent around the charactersheet, not the character.
Worse, wishlists are the opposite of what I describe above.  I place logical treasure that promotes in game thinking.  

Quote from: meMy whole internal quest with gaming has been to try to create as much an opportunity for in-game logic as possible. This does not always preclude rolling for area specific encounters or treasure types, but it does preclude creatures ignoring possibly useful treasures.
It also includes a large amount (much larger than in the DMG) of misc/useful items. I am the GM who places roasting pans of temperature control (+10% to cooking skills) and Evercoal, shirts and leggings of warmth, and scroll of the 'umbrella' cantrip.
Because internal campaign logic is my weirdo holy grail.

Wish lists are the opposite of this.  They are the opposite of creating an 'in-game' logical framework.

Quote from: LordVreeg;387647I had actually managed to avoid this thread.  Crap.

I almost never rolled for exact treasure.  But I used to use to roll for what you are talking about above; the type of stuff found.  And then I'd make a logical (based on where it is found) treasure set from there.

My whole internal quest with gaming has been to try to create as much an opportunity for in-game logic as possible.  This does not always preclude rolling for area specific encounters or treasure types, but it does preclude creatures ignoring possibly useful treasures.
It also includes a large amount (much larger than in the DMG) of misc/useful items.  I am the GM who places roasting pans of temperature control (+10% to cooking skills) and Evercoal, shirts and leggings of warmth, and scroll of the 'umbrella' cantrip.  
Because internal campaign logic is my weirdo holy grail.

I'd agree with this. One of the best Items I even placed was this book that was like a kind of bag of holding. You opened it at a double page sreap and there would be a roaring fire, or a bowl of clear water or a carpenters tool bag , or a pair of matched dueling pistols, or a selection of chef's knives and seasoning, or even a plate of roast beef with all the trimmings.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;387665It's the least magic-item dependent version I've seen. There's no "Can only be hit by magical weapons".

Wrong.  Encounter balance builds in and assumes positive modifers from magical equipment.  The same conceit was present in 3.5.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;387665It's the least magic-item dependent version I've seen. There's no "Can only be hit by magical weapons".

There's even an option to turn magic items off entirely if you like. And yes, I am saying 4E is not about acquiring magic items. It's also not about "killing monsters and taking their stuff".

I suspect this also might be the reason that some people are so put off by 4E's detailed and dynamic combats: their expectations of the what the game is about are completely different.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;387673There's even an option to turn magic items off entirely if you like. And yes, I am saying 4E is not about acquiring magic items. It's also not about "killing monsters and taking their stuff".

I suspect this also might be the reason that some people are so put off by 4E's detailed and dynamic combats: their expectations of the what the game is about are completely different.

What is 4e about?