Quote from: Spinachcat;387451As for wish-list magic items, WTF is the big deal if your Imaginary Elf gets his Imaginary Magic Bow?

Then why bother to play?  Here, next time you want to start up a game, print this out:

Your imaginary Elf wins everything, has all the magic and women in the world, and constantly bones them with his 10 foot cock.

See?  I just saved you four to six months worth of Saturdays toiling away, waiting for some stingy DM to give you that stuff!

Oh, and while Yahtzee does bash a lot of stupid game designs, I find these words of wisdom a little more potent:

QuoteFans are clingy complaining dipshits who will never, ever be happy no matter what concessions you make for them, and the sooner you learn to tune out their shrill, tremulous voices the happier you'll be for it.

No matter what anyone does with D&D, there will be a group of people somewhere who hate it.  It's a natural law of the universe.  Some people hated AD&D.  Some people hated 2e.  Some people hated 3e.  Some people hate 4e.  And it continues...

Quote from: StormBringer;387473Your imaginary Elf wins everything, has all the magic and women in the world, and constantly bones them with his 10 foot cock.

See?  I just saved you four to six months worth of Saturdays toiling away, waiting for some stingy DM to give you that stuff!

Your DM gives you a 10 foot cock after just 6 months?  

How Monty Haul of you.  



The 4e wish list concept does not negate any reason to play.  

OD&D = you go in the dungeon, kill the monsters and find some cool magic.

4e = you go in the dungeon, kill the monsters and find some cool magic that fits your character concept.

In superhero RPGs like Champions, you don't have to give XYZ goodies at the end of the adventure.   The heroes go out and do shit because they are heroes.  4e plays like that.   Your Imaginary Elf goes out into the world to kick ass and be the big damn hero.   His gear is secondary.

In OD&D, the quest for accumulation is usually the major focus.   You go into dungeons to get the kickass gear.

Its just a different style of play.  

And one that is very appealing, but this should not surprise anyone.   Its just yet another step of control over the character creation and ongoing build process.   Items become like feats.   You tack them on to enhance or diversify the character.

If you look at the 4e math, you will see that magic items are FAR weaker game-changers than in OD&D.   AKA, your +1 magic sword bonus is nice, but you already have a +9 from level and ability, versus a +1 magic bonus when your level and ability only get you to +4 feels different.

Quote from: Spinachcat;387530Its just a different style of play.  

It is not a different style of play, it is an entirely different game.

OD&D: DM decides to stock a pile of loot with magic items, every character gets one.  DM decides not to stock a pile of loot with any magic items, nobody gets one.

WotC's fantasy game: DM, STOCK THE PILE OF LOOT WITH MAGIC ITEMS SO EVERYBODY CAN GET ONE.  IT'S THE RULES, AND IF YOU DON'T, YOU'RE AN ASSASSIN OF FUN.

Quote from: Peregrin;387509Oh, and while Yahtzee does bash a lot of stupid game designs, I find these words of wisdom a little more potent:



No matter what anyone does with D&D, there will be a group of people somewhere who hate it.  It's a natural law of the universe.  Some people hated AD&D.  Some people hated 2e.  Some people hated 3e.  Some people hate 4e.  And it continues...

Dammit.  I wish I would have said that.  

Quote from: thedungeondelver;387535It is not a different style of play, it is an entirely different game.

OD&D: DM decides to stock a pile of loot with magic items, every character gets one.  DM decides not to stock a pile of loot with any magic items, nobody gets one.

WotC's fantasy game: DM, STOCK THE PILE OF LOOT WITH MAGIC ITEMS SO EVERYBODY CAN GET ONE.  IT'S THE RULES, AND IF YOU DON'T, YOU'RE AN ASSASSIN OF FUN.

Exactly.  It's not just a different style, it is now the only style.

Quote from: Werekoala;387355...I don't like the idea of a DM fudging rolls to keep people alive so they don't "ruin the fun".

It was Gygax's advice in the 1e DMG...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;387569It was Gygax's advice in the 1e DMG...

So... now I should like it? I was always a "let the dice fall where they may" sort.

Quote from: Benoist;387387And it's all fine and good, which amounts to the Colonel's argument that "this is fluff text, ignore it". Thing is, that's your case, my case, the Colonel's case, but not every GM does that. Especially not people picking up the game for the first time or trying to better themselves by reading the advice presented by the book. i.e. this. We've come full circle.

I do see your point. I think part of the issue is there are really just a number of ways to approach the game, and a number of schools of thought when it comes to GMing. The problem, for me, lies in saying one approach fits everyone. What I would rather see with something like D&D (since it is the go to standard) is an overview of the different approaches along with the pros and cons of each. I am always skeptical when someone tells me they have "the one true path" for gaming. I don't mind someone making an argument for one approach for their system, but when it becomes dogma, I think it can be an issue.

As an example, I started out GMing with Ravenloft, during 2E. I took every word in the ravenloft boxed set as gospel. The books said for it to be scary you have to do Y not X. There was a sort of code of horror. As I got older, while I understood much of the advice to be helpful, I realized there are many different approaches to horror, and how well each one works really depends on the make up of the group. I found some of the techniques in the Ravenloft boxed set were effective for some people, but for others, gore or just the very real threat of character death was what was called for. First impressions are always very powerful, but if you grow as a person, you can always shed the negatives of a first impression.

Quote from: Peregrin;387509No matter what anyone does with D&D, there will be a group of people somewhere who hate it.  It's a natural law of the universe.  Some people hated AD&D.  Some people hated 2e.  Some people hated 3e.  Some people hate 4e.  And it continues...

Yathzee's words are the truest Truth ever spoken, and the reason for me to have hobbies while hating many fans of said hobbies.

And also, Peregrin is right on the rest.

Quote from: StormBringer;387545Exactly.  It's not just a different style, it is now the only style.

Mate, I usually like your posts but I just cannot take this statement seriously. Internet has made this kind of thinking absolutely untrue.

Quote from: Spinachcat;387530The 4e wish list concept does not negate any reason to play.  

OD&D = you go in the dungeon, kill the monsters and find some cool magic.

4e = you go in the dungeon, kill the monsters and find some cool magic that fits your character concept.

Harley Davidson = You sit on a motorized vehicle to go wherever you want



Obesity Scooter = You sit on a motorized vehicle to go wherever you want without walking

QuoteIn superhero RPGs like Champions [...]

...are the start towards Forgery.

Holy shit.  Thumbnails are your friend.  Or maybe resizing, at least.

Also, Harleys are pretty dated engineering-wise, and a significant portion of the people who ride them are douchebags. Do you really want to draw that analogy?  

I must admit. I laughed out loud.

Settembrini won the thread, can we kill this thread now so we can start the next 4e battle royale w/cheese?

Quote from: Peregrin;387592Holy shit.  Thumbnails are your friend.  Or maybe resizing, at least.

Also, Harleys are pretty dated engineering-wise, and a significant portion of the people who ride them are douchebags. Do you really want to draw that analogy?  

I am from Wisconsin, and I have to concur.  Since the mid 90's or so, they have been re-tooled into over priced status toys for doctors and lawyers.