Quote from: Windjammer;387374Just want to thank J_Arcane and Melan for their insightful posts. Changed a lot how I perceive the wider spectrum of computer games and how they've changed over the past 10-15 years.

I'd add that the (to my knowledge) most vocal proponent of what Melan loosely termed the open-ended approach is Yathzee, whose Zero Punctuation reviews have mercilessly shown the utter ineptness of contemporary computer game design.

Or it could be that like always, very few things are truly excellent.

I mean, you could argue that 70s rock is better than most modern day rock.  But if you actually go back in time, you'll realize the bad shit just got filtered out over the decades.  There are plenty of older games Yahtzee would absolutely trash. And growing up with the NES and a computer in the house, I remember plenty of shitacular games on both that I suffered through.

Plus, there are companies who continually put out games that are better than their old counterparts.  Look at Valve's games.  Every title they have pushed out is consistently better than the last.  Team Fortress 2 managed to be both extremely challenging with a fair learning curve to play competitively and far more engaging both in terms of gameplay and presentation than the original.

Also, it's interesting to note that computer/video-games that are done more "traditionally" or that cater to more "hardcore" players score well above average in reviews, unlike tabletop, where a lot of games styled after older rulesets often get tossed as "archaic."

Oh, and minor quibble.  Video/computer game development is pretty muddled right now, as traditional Western PC developers shift to consoles and development/gamer cultures change.  There is a bit of a blurred line between what constitutes a more traditional design and one that is new, and there are still companies making games that cater to a more traditional demographic (thus, more Diablo, more Starcraft, more Half-Life, and a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate that some people claimed was "too hard").

The same thing exists in tabletop design, but because it's a smaller and more obsessive community, people are willing to draw lines more clearly.  Most video-gamers do not give a shit, and as mainly a PC gamer, I think most of my "brethren" give too much of a shit, too.  There's a reason why my external hard-drive is only full of the "classics", because those are the ones that managed to stand above the heap of shit that was released in the last two to three decades.


The most dire problem right now is that with Western developers doing a better job at pumping out decent games than Japanese studios, you've got a flood of the "hardcore" demographic making their games and catering to adults on consoles, whereas consoles were once primarily the realm of kids.  Without an influx of young gamers who have true brand loyalty (I love Sonic! I love Mario, etc) on the console end of things, the industry is setting itself up for the same collapse that plagued comic books.  Of course, PC gaming, as the last time the console industry collapsed due to over-saturation, will remain unaffected and possible go through a revival.

Tabletop is already well past the point of no return in terms of creating games that are accessible to children as well as challenging and interesting enough for adults.  My gut tells me that my generation, the people who came in with 3rd edition, or the teens and college-aged peeps who started with 4e because D&D is "geek chic" and Penny-Arcade talks about it, I honestly feel like we're the last gasp before the so-called "industry" goes back to being next to nothing and a downward trend starts accelerating.

Quote from: Werekoala;387338but the guide says you should say "yes" and then make up the details on the fly

Perfect example of designers wanting to "go narrative" but not really understanding WTH that means.  The original quote is "say yes...or roll the dice" which comes from Dogs in the Vineyard.

Of course the designers of 4e don't understand what Baker was talking about so we get "say yes, and let players design your world by making shit up that directly benefits them."

Quote from: CRKrueger;387405Perfect example of designers wanting to "go narrative" but not really understanding WTH that means.  The original quote is "say yes...or roll the dice" which comes from Dogs in the Vineyard.

Of course the designers of 4e don't understand what Baker was talking about so we get "say yes, and let players design your world by making shit up that directly benefits them."

If it's interesting, I don't see why that would be a problem. I mean obviously it can be taken too far, but if (for example) a player wants to create an assassins guild and a secret prophecy or something, because he's playing an assassin and he wants something cool for his backstory.. I'm all for it. Proactive suggestions (which are a far more ancient and venerable tradition than anything forgie nitwits ever came up with) can make a DMs life a lot easier, keep the players engaged, and provide creative direction.

Your hypocrisy continues to abound, AM.

If Ron Edwards makes the next D&D, will you be there to defend everything you once fought too?

Quote from: J Arcane;387437Your hypocrisy continues to abound, AM.

If Ron Edwards makes the next D&D, will you be there to defend everything you once fought too?

Well, there was a period when everyone made the decision to either stay at GO or joined the forge, and I was one of the guys who never went. So I guess history says "no"?

Players being proactive about helping build details of the campaign world (or DMs being willing to listen to suggestions) isn't something those guys invented, by any stretch.

Quote from: Peregrin;387397There's a reason why my external hard-drive is only full of the "classics", because those are the ones that managed to stand above the heap of shit that was released in the last two to three decades.

I'm not too sure about that. Sure, I've got Missile Command and Icewind Dale, and Civilization, and Star Trek and Rogue/Nethack still installed on my PC, and I still regularly play these games.

Iv'e also got my kids a PS3. Little Big Planet and Red Dead Redemption are both Blockbuster Games, chock full of awesome, that even standalone (Iv'e so far successfully resisted signing up for the PS3 Network account), offer almost limitless play opportunities.

LBP comes with a better than complete, level generator that allows you to create, save, and share your own game levels. You are really only limited by your imagination and the time you want to expend creating new adventures. My kids make about a new game level about every week, and they are 7 and 9 now.  

RDR Is a Western Genre game that offers multiple indepth storylines, multiple career choices, and some of the best new roleplaying opportunities since Baldur's Gate/Fallout was originally released. I have completed about 2/3 of the basic storyline with this over the last month or so, but can see some real interesting MMORPG play down the road when I finally do signup for a PS3 Network account.

By the way, you can completely burn down the Jail in Armadillo by shooting out the lanterns that are lit at night in the Sherriffs office. My daughter taught me that. She became wanted by the law after that, but managed to pay off the bounty and get a pardon from the governor for her more law abiding crime fighting activities later on down the road. She's still leaning from time-to-time towards becoming an outlaw but has so far resisted the temptation.

Most of her time is spent wrangling and breaking Mustangs, and she's busied herself of late, trying to obtain the best collection of horses west of the Mississippi.

The only thing I want to use a PS3 for is to play endless God of War series...

Quote from: GameDaddy;387440I'm not too sure about that. Sure, I've got Missile Command and Icewind Dale, and Civilization, and Star Trek and Rogue/Nethack still installed on my PC, and I still regularly play these games.

I don't see how this conflicts with what I posted.

Good games have been made, and always will be made.  But just because you don't pay attention to the shovelware and crappy games doesn't mean they aren't floating around out there.

My argument was that game design hasn't become "inept", but that, as always, there are a ton of forgettable games amidst the few gems we'll always remember and always go back to.

Or just some us like one type of game more than others...like God of War series.

Quote from: Nightfall;387446Or just some us like one type of game more than others...like God of War series.

You've tried Red Dead Redemption? It's currently my favorite MMORPG game. Even standalone, there's bunches of npc's in it.

I don't like Westerns. Guns and NF don't mix well.

Quote from: Peregrin;387397I honestly feel like we're the last gasp before the so-called "industry" goes back to being next to nothing and a downward trend starts accelerating.

I disagree.

People love interactive, face to face storytelling.   Very soon, the portable technology will allow RPGs to have WoW graphics and invisible mechanics so future RPGers will be focussed on roleplaying their characters and experiencing their adventures...but their inner imagination will be bolstered by next-gen maps and minis.

Quote from: CRKrueger;387405Of course the designers of 4e don't understand what Baker was talking about so we get "say yes, and let players design your world by making shit up that directly benefits them."

Or they actually played D&D...with other gamers.

Players contributing ideas to the game world is NOT new.  There have always been GMs who were open to incorporating their players' ideas.  

As for wish-list magic items, WTF is the big deal if your Imaginary Elf gets his Imaginary Magic Bow?

Quote from: Nightfall;387449I don't like Westerns. Guns and NF don't mix well.

You know you can use a knife, right? It's the weapon of choice for hunting, and if you are really good, you can bring down most of the gunfighters. For some reason the duels always have you default to using a six-shooter. Frankly, I like the repeating rifle better.

I wonder if there will be an expansion featuring native americans, and native american weapons?

Gameday,

Knifes are fine with NF. But I like axes of many sizes, and dragons. Some how dragons and westerns don't exactly mix. That or demons. Hence God of War gets me what I want, ripping carnage against classic monsters.

Also I'm a fan of Deadliest warrior and they pretty much agreed, gunpower weapons = death for most non-armored (and some armored) opponents. So that kind of kills the fun for me.

*agrees with Spin-chat* While some of us DM prefer a modicrum of control over the world we tell, giving the players what they want helps in the long term game by saying "Sure your input is good." besides Encounters might not work for me and/or the people I hang with, but it's a good way to get people to take the first steps.

Also the only thing wrong with imaginary bows for imaginary elves is if it brings down the imaginary dragon that's the size of a skyscraper in one shot. But if it's something the PC had back in the day that's SUPPOSED to do that...then hey let it happen.

Quote from: Spinachcat;387451People love interactive, face to face storytelling.   Very soon, the portable technology will allow RPGs to have WoW graphics and invisible mechanics so future RPGers will be focussed on roleplaying their characters and experiencing their adventures...but their inner imagination will be bolstered by next-gen maps and minis.

What do minis and maps do that makes RPGs more focused on that attractive storytelling purpose?  Because I'm not seeing it.  They're a tool used for a specific technique, but they don't do anything for the experience in terms of separating RPGs from other games or stressing the strengths of tabletop.

I've nothing against virtual worlds or simulations, but those are more akin to a crossover between tabletop and video-games -- something distinct in its own right that is different from tabletop play.

Plus, I can role-play just fine in Neverwinter Nights if I want to have a digital avatar tacked onto the experience with a ruleset I can let the computer handle.