Quote from: Benoist;375009If by this you mean that this "The rules *are* the game, and the game is meant to be *the rules*" BS is a forgism, then I agree.

Well, that is what i quoted, so any confusion from SB and yourself is rather puzzling.

Quote from: One Horse Town;375010Well, that is what i quoted, so any confusion from SB and yourself is rather puzzling.

Nah, that's what I thought you meant. SB's reaction confused me.

Quote from: One Horse Town;375010Well, that is what i quoted, so any confusion from SB and yourself is rather puzzling.

My apologies, I think I blanked out the last part of the sentence as a natural reaction or something and focussed on the 'rules are the game' part without taking the context into account.  I read that in light of the arguments on behalf of the recent rulesets to direct the 'spotlight' or 'screen time' or whatever the kids these days call 'your turn' in preference to just making a good game.

EDIT:  And by 'good game', I mean a reasonably robust set of rules that are flexible and 'transparent' enough for the players to tweak without causing massive havoc affecting the mechanics as a whole.

Quote from: Imperator;374934It never ceases to amaze me how some people (not you, ggroy) may think that somehow there are some ways of pretending to be a gay-ass elf that are 'manlier' than others.

Also, I'm quite mystified by the notion that one must 'endure' some things to get the fun, and that there is some hard work that needs to be done to be a real gamer. What's wrong with the game being fun from minute one for some people?

I think the issue is not one of "manliness", but rather of having a basic level of maturity. Having to lose a turn is a common feature of family boardgames and one would expect that someone beyond a certain age would be able to suck it up and play on. If a player feels that waiting for other players to take a turn while they miss one is such a great imposition and an infringement of their "right to fun", then perhaps another hobby would a better fit. A game without the possibility of setbacks or loss is hardly a game at all.

Quote from: SgtSpaceWizard;375014Having to lose a turn is a common feature of family boardgames and one would expect that someone beyond a certain age would be able to suck it up and play on. If a player feels that waiting for other players to take a turn while they miss one is such a great imposition and an infringement of their "right to fun", then perhaps another hobby would a better fit.

Actually,  missing a turn is not part of modern boardgame designs. I spend a lot more time playing boardgames and hanging out on Boardgamegeek than I do with RPGs, and I can tell you that 4E is clearly driven by modern boardgame design principals. And one of those principals is that all players should be involved at all times, with a minimum of downtime. Games where players miss a turn or have to wait a few minutes to take a turn are derided as moronic anachronisms.

I think it's time to recognize that D&D is now a sub-hobby of the broader boardgaming hobby. And it's impossible to understand the design principals and the ongoing development of the game without understanding what's going on in the boardgaming hobby.

So anyone who's really interested in the future of D&D should head over to BGG and spend a few days browsing the forums and game ratings there.

Quote from: Haffrung;375018Actually,  missing a turn is not part of modern boardgame designs. I spend a lot more time playing boardgames and hanging out on Boardgamegeek than I do with RPGs, and I can tell you that 4E is clearly driven by modern boardgame design principals. And one of those principals is that all players should be involved at all times, with a minimum of downtime. Games where players miss a turn or have to wait a few minutes to take a turn are derided as moronic anachronisms.

Fair enough. However there are still alot of anachronistic games on the shelves at Wal-mart and Toys-R-Us etc. I would think most people have played Monopoly, Uno, Life, Sorry, and so on; at some point in their childhood and I would hope doing so helped teach them how to be a good sport and play well with others. It could be wishful thinking, I know.

Quote from: Benoist;375011Nah, that's what I thought you meant. SB's reaction confused me.

It's not something i'd accuse 4e of doing, though.

Quote from: One Horse Town;375031It's not something i'd accuse 4e of doing, though.

No, 4e confuses me on a regular basis.  

Quote from: One Horse Town;375031It's not something i'd accuse 4e of doing, though.

I would. Just did, as a matter of fact.

Quote from: Benoist;375035I would. Just did, as a matter of fact.

This is actually getting quite painful...I know you did, which was why i said i wouldn't.

Fuck it, i'll leave the rainmen to the thread. Carry on.

Quote from: One Horse Town;375038This is actually getting quite painful...I know you did, which was why i said i wouldn't.

Fuck it, i'll leave the rainmen to the thread. Carry on.

I know you know. I was just confirming the differenciation you were making.
But what the heck. *shrug*

Quote from: SgtSpaceWizard;375014I think the issue is not one of "manliness"

No idea how one would define "manliness" when it comes to tabletop rpg games these days.

Decades ago, I suppose I would have defined rpg "manliness" as one being proficient at playing an rpg with a very complicated ruleset.  Something along the lines of Rolemaster perhaps.

Quote from: ggroy;375047No idea how one would define "manliness" when it comes to tabletop rpg games these days.

Decades ago, I suppose I would have defined rpg "manliness" as one being proficient at playing an rpg with a very complicated ruleset.  Something along the lines of Rolemaster perhaps.

That is more like 'geekliness', though, isn't it?  

Morrus' Players should play more Call of Cthulhu, IMO.

Quote from: StormBringer;375053That is more like 'geekliness', though, isn't it?  

Probably.

The question is what exactly differentiates "rpg manliness" from "rpg geekliness".