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[4e is not for everyone] The Tyranny of Fun: quit obsessing over my 2008 post already

Started by Melan, June 27, 2008, 04:42:17 AM

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StormBringer

#1230
June 24, 2010, 04:36:50 PM
Quote from: Seanchai;389864Yes. Clearly, it does.

Seanchai
So, remember folks, the end-all, be-all of any conversation is simply whether or not you like something.  There is no need to explore any topic further than that.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Werekoala

#1231
June 24, 2010, 04:39:26 PM Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 04:42:00 PM by Werekoala
Quote from: StormBringer;389815That is where we start getting into the timing of the dice, really.  Do you roll and interpret the results, or do you stake out an action, and determine the success?

It gets fairly esoteric past that, and I am sure we would bore the hell out of everyone here by exploring it.  I will start a topic over at the Citadel.  :)

What about a "fixed damage" system where the fireball always does 15 points of damage, or damage scaled based on your level (for example) so no roll is required. Rolling for damage in some games/instances has always kinda struck me as odd anyway, but it seems to be the norm.
Lan Astaslem


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J Arcane

#1232
June 24, 2010, 05:26:12 PM
You know I really must say, I wasn't really sure about you, but after those last two posts, I really like you Frank Trollman.

That may be the most thorough takedown I've seen on the Internet in some time.

Bravo, and good points.
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Peregrin

#1233
June 24, 2010, 05:47:01 PM
Quote from: Benoist;389789I think you guys would need to try at reading comprehension harder, IF you were willing to do so in the first place, of course. This is not what Justin is saying. What he is saying is that WHEN you are using a dissociated mechanic, you are de facto NOT role playing. You are metagaming.

Quote from: StormBringer;389799So, when you reach for the 6d6 to figure out your fireball damage and total them up, that is not role playing; the actual calculation and reporting the amount of damage isn't role playing.  On the other hand, deciding to use said fireball against a frost giant - because it makes sense that fire would be more effective against ice - is role playing.  Even if you are playing an Enchanter (with a scroll of fireball), deciding that would be more effective is an in-character decision.  Conversely, foregoing the fireball for your pet spell confusion is also an in-character decision.  Both are role playing.

Oh...well...I've no problem with this.
"In a way, the Lands of Dream are far more brutal than the worlds of most mainstream games. All of the games set there have a bittersweetness that I find much harder to take than the ridiculous adolescent posturing of so-called \'grittily realistic\' games. So maybe one reason I like them as a setting is because they are far more like the real world: colourful, crazy, full of strange creatures and people, eternal and yet changing, deeply beautiful and sometimes profoundly bitter."

J Arcane

#1234
June 24, 2010, 05:48:44 PM
"Math is hard!"
Bedroom Wall Press - Games that make you feel like a kid again.

Arcana Rising - An Urban Fantasy Roleplaying Game, powered by Hulks and Horrors.
Hulks and Horrors - A Sci-Fi Roleplaying game of Exploration and Dungeon Adventure
Heaven\'s Shadow - A Roleplaying Game of Faith and Assassination

Peregrin

#1235
June 24, 2010, 05:52:34 PM
Barbie, or Ralph Wiggum?
"In a way, the Lands of Dream are far more brutal than the worlds of most mainstream games. All of the games set there have a bittersweetness that I find much harder to take than the ridiculous adolescent posturing of so-called \'grittily realistic\' games. So maybe one reason I like them as a setting is because they are far more like the real world: colourful, crazy, full of strange creatures and people, eternal and yet changing, deeply beautiful and sometimes profoundly bitter."

LordVreeg

#1236
June 24, 2010, 06:02:22 PM
Quote from: J Arcane;389877"Math is hard!"

You haven't seen anything yet...
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StormBringer

#1237
June 24, 2010, 06:10:08 PM
Quote from: Werekoala;389868What about a "fixed damage" system where the fireball always does 15 points of damage, or damage scaled based on your level (for example) so no roll is required. Rolling for damage in some games/instances has always kinda struck me as odd anyway, but it seems to be the norm.
That would fall under the first category, except that the result is 'pre-determined'.  So, the action is taken, but the results aren't random.  I don't think 'random' is particularly critical to the timing, really.  Any method of determination is suitable.  Nobilis is almost strictly non-random, and it has a determination of success after an action is proposed.

I think the Forge had a term for that revolving around 'fortune'.  Fortune in the middle, fortune at the end...  something like that.  I don't like the term 'fortune'; as I mentioned, it doesn't necessarily have to be random.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Peregrin

#1238
June 24, 2010, 06:14:46 PM
Fortune, Karma, and Drama (by Forge definitions, random, resource, descriptive/story fiat by GM and/or players).

Nobilis would be an example of a game with a Karma based system.  Vancian spellcasting is also Karma.

Edwards "borrowed" the terms from Jonathan Tweet (and misused them in the process, I believe -- at least that's what Tweet's site said).
"In a way, the Lands of Dream are far more brutal than the worlds of most mainstream games. All of the games set there have a bittersweetness that I find much harder to take than the ridiculous adolescent posturing of so-called \'grittily realistic\' games. So maybe one reason I like them as a setting is because they are far more like the real world: colourful, crazy, full of strange creatures and people, eternal and yet changing, deeply beautiful and sometimes profoundly bitter."

StormBringer

#1239
June 24, 2010, 06:54:08 PM
Quote from: Peregrin;389886Fortune, Karma, and Drama (by Forge definitions, random, resource, descriptive/story fiat by GM and/or players).

Nobilis would be an example of a game with a Karma based system.  Vancian spellcasting is also Karma.

Edwards "borrowed" the terms from Jonathan Tweet (and misused them in the process, I believe -- at least that's what Tweet's site said).
Yeah, I thought it was something like that.  I don't think the actual method of determination is all that important, just when you do it.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

RandallS

#1240
June 24, 2010, 07:00:44 PM
Quote from: thecasualoblivion;389841You guys are using vague technical jargon and complicated philosophical theses to say "4E isn't the sort of game I like to play"

Why not just say "4E isn't the sort of game I like to play"?

At least in my case because it is broader than just 4e. I don't enjoy games with lots of "dissociated mechanics."  D&D 4e may be the most talked about game with this issue, but there are many more of them. It's one of the main problems I have with "story-games", for example.
Randall
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RandallS

#1241
June 24, 2010, 07:05:24 PM
Quote from: Werekoala;389868What about a "fixed damage" system where the fireball always does 15 points of damage, or damage scaled based on your level (for example) so no roll is required. Rolling for damage in some games/instances has always kinda struck me as odd anyway, but it seems to be the norm.

I've used such a system before (in an attempt to speed up combat). Everything did average damage.  It worked fine, but might not be "interesting enough" for some players in a game where combat played a more central role than it did in mine.
Randall
Rules Light RPGs: Home of Microlite20 and Other Rules-Lite Tabletop RPGs

Benoist

#1242
June 24, 2010, 07:11:23 PM
Quote from: RandallS;389902I've used such a system before (in an attempt to speed up combat). Everything did average damage.  It worked fine, but might not be "interesting enough" for some players in a game where combat played a more central role than it did in mine.
Takes away from the thrill of rolling dice. A thrill which, by the way, might be a metagame element of the play which actually increases immersion since it makes the players anticipate results and emotionally ties them to the outcome of actions in the game (i.e. they get excited about what's going on, and as a result, they are more "into" the game). YMMV.

Peregrin

#1243
June 24, 2010, 07:20:30 PM Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 07:24:49 PM by Peregrin
Quote from: Benoist;389905Takes away from the thrill of rolling dice. A thrill which, by the way, might be a metagame element of the play which actually increases immersion since it makes the players anticipate results and emotionally ties them to the outcome of actions in the game (i.e. they get excited about what's going on, and as a result, they are more "into" the game). YMMV.

Unexpected results add to the "life" of the game, IMO.

'Tis why I like Burning Wheel's combat scripting.  For some it's too metagamey, and maybe a portion of it is -- but when you start resolving actions and seeing how everything unfolds in unexpected ways, it's really cool.

Chance also puts a barrier in the way of players who try to "mastermind" mechanical events since a bad roll is like a wrench in the gears.
"In a way, the Lands of Dream are far more brutal than the worlds of most mainstream games. All of the games set there have a bittersweetness that I find much harder to take than the ridiculous adolescent posturing of so-called \'grittily realistic\' games. So maybe one reason I like them as a setting is because they are far more like the real world: colourful, crazy, full of strange creatures and people, eternal and yet changing, deeply beautiful and sometimes profoundly bitter."

Bloody Stupid Johnson

#1244
June 24, 2010, 07:34:11 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;389883That would fall under the first category, except that the result is 'pre-determined'.  So, the action is taken, but the results aren't random.  I don't think 'random' is particularly critical to the timing, really.  Any method of determination is suitable.  Nobilis is almost strictly non-random, and it has a determination of success after an action is proposed.

I think the Forge had a term for that revolving around 'fortune'.  Fortune in the middle, fortune at the end...  something like that.  I don't like the term 'fortune'; as I mentioned, it doesn't necessarily have to be random.

In Forge terminology, "Fortune" (i.e. die roll) in the Middle" and "Fortune at the beginning" (I think) is about whether you choose an action and roll to see if it works, or if you roll dice and that defines the action. Compare "I'm going to try to cut his head off, so I roll at -8" and "I get a critical hit, so I cut his head off" - e.g. its whether your choosing an exact action and adjust your roll with bonuses/ penalties, or whether what you chose to do is determined by the die roll.
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