Quote from: Benoist;389626I don't care about your questions. I know you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, and I'm not interested in a pissing match with you. Go find targets for your trolling somewhere else. Thank you.

You always seem to go back to this when you have nothing to say.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;389627You always seem to go back to this when you have nothing to say.

While you always post just for the sake of the argument.

Now I've been polite. Please. Go troll someone else. Thanks.

Quote from: Benoist;389629While you always post just for the sake of the argument.

Now I've been polite. Please. Go troll someone else. Thanks.

The fact that I post for the sake of the argument does not mean I don't have one. Either reply or ignore me, this name calling just makes you look like you have nothing to say.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;389590The point is, (and stop thinking about realism for a second, this isn't about mono or the flu, it's more about vamprisim or filth fever): your character can catch diseases in the game, but  you won't know how to roleplay them until you have the OOC affects explained.

You know what the difference is? The order things happen. Because your entire concept of metagaming seems to suggest that the players are playing along and the mechanics come along after the roleplaying part as applied by yon snowy-bearded GM to "model the simulative reality". The thing you seem to have a problem with is that players might take advantage of OOC info.

In my version of events, it's quite often the mechanical things happen first as part of the rules, and you find the roleplaying hook therein. So yes, the PC absolutely gets to "take advantage" of the OOC info that the mechanics provide- and that creates immersive opportunities, depending on how good or talented the players are. So if a monster has an attack that causes a player to "take 6 damage and be slowed", that gives the player the chance to say "I twisted my ankle!" or the Dm to make something up, or any combination.

It requires a willingness to creatively and vividly interpret and translate mechanics and conditions into descriptive detail on the part of the players and the DM, and also the cognizance on everyone's part to realize that games can be descriptive and imaginative experiences without being strictly realistic simulative models, psychotherapy sessions, misery exploration, or improv theater.

I appreciate the post, but it is about Mono and the flu, as those are extant in my setting, just as Vampirism and filthfever are in the other setting.
It's not OOC.  It is information the character would have.  So it is not OOC.  If the GM is telling me how to play them because my character knows how it feels, it is IC, not OOC.  Understand?
They are not OOC affects if my character would feel them, as that is knowledge the character would have.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;389632The fact that I post for the sake of the argument does not mean I don't have one. Either reply or ignore me, this name calling just makes you look like you have nothing to say.

Past behavior is the best indicator of future conduct, Shepherd boy.  People get tired of checking for the wolf.

Quote from: LordVreeg;389638Past behavior is the best indicator of future conduct, Shepherd boy.  People get tired of checking for the wolf.

And I still say calling people names is a lazy excuse for not having a real reply.

You are perfectly free to ignore what I say. The fact that you feel the need to call me a name tells me that I've actually said something, something that you feel needs to be responded to, and yet you don't have a real reply of your own so you fall back on name calling.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;389642And I still say calling people names is a lazy excuse for not having a real reply.

You are perfectly free to ignore what I say. The fact that you feel the need to call me a name tells me that I've actually said something, something that you feel needs to be responded to, and yet you don't have a real reply of your own so you fall back on name calling.

Every post you make here just tells everyone else you're bored and wanted something to argue about.  Your attempts to stick needles in Benoist and Lord Vreeg over their ignoring you in order to make them reengage is way too transparent.  Go try that on the WotC boards where I'm sure you argue that 4e is less immersive. :rotfl:

Quote from: CRKrueger;389645Every post you make here just tells everyone else you're bored and wanted something to argue about.  Your attempts to stick needles in Benoist and Lord Vreeg over their ignoring you in order to make them reengage is way too transparent.  Go try that on the WotC boards where I'm sure you argue that 4e is less immersive. :rotfl:

LOL What's hilarious is the ten-year-old psychology he applies to this. "You know you want to answer to my posts. You don't say anything because you have nothing to say! Come on! Prove to me you can say something to rebute my oh-so-insightful post! PLEASE! I need you to be offended for us to go on arguing!!!ONE!"

Quote from: Benoist;389609This is an excellent post.

I do believe that dissociation is not an on/off switch, by which I mean (not which witch is which, no, but instead) that it is a matter of degrees of dissociation, not whether a mechanic is dissociated or not. The question then becomes what the degree of dissociation of a particular mechanic is, and not whether it helps conduct immersion or not, but how many players find it conducive of immersion or not,  to which extent, and the degree of suspension of disbelief it requires to do so.

It seems to me that the more associated the mechanic, the less people will have problems finding interpretations for them in the game world and immerse themselves in said world. Conversely, the more dissociated the mechanic, the more people will have problem coming up with interpretations of what it means in the game world, and thus immerse themselves in the game world. There will still be players able to jump the obstacle, but the obstacle will be taller nonetheless.

I'm going to ask a question here. When it comes to immersion and association, association to what?

When it comes to the game world, what is the game world and what are its rules? Must how and why be strictly defined, or is simply what results more important?

To me, there isn't just one way to define these things. Some people talk about game world physics, I would ask why must the game be grounded in physics? What if a round isn't six seconds, but an indeterminate amount of time defined as the time it takes everyone to act. There is a lot more freedom in the second definition.

I'll give my take on two 4E aspects I've heard people complain about, Martial powers usable once per day and Action Points:

Martial Daily Powers--These are really spectacular techniques that are very difficult to pull off, and take an extraordinary application of will and opportunity to execute. A real life example would be the Haymaker in boxing, something that takes talent and an opening to execute, and something you can't just do at will. The game translates this into something usable once per day, and puts it in the players hands(in the form of narrative control) when this combination of will and opportunity will occur.

Action Points--To me Action Points are simple. They are the ability to go the extra mile when you really need to, to do a little extra in a dramatic moment, and like daily powers giving the player control over when the dramatic moment occurs.

Quote from: StormBringer;389606Jesus, you don't need to use the command line all the time, and even if you were, it is just as immersive as the GUI.  I am constantly typing stuff in the shell, and I feel every bit as immersed in the experience as the GUI.

You see, I'm talking about a different, more personal kind of immersion.

If you like textual immersion, that's fine, but it's not the same thing.  It's a totally different experience -- you may as well not have the GUI.

Maybe the use of a command line doesn't matter to you, but it certainly interrupts my experience.

Quote from: beejazz;389503I think it's more productive all around if I just apologize for lumping you in with the other two (you're not paranoid, just obstinate) and we leave it at that.

No need to apologize, but the point is, specifics aside, that both sides are convinced the other is slinging bullshit. You think I'm "insanely frustrating"? Try having to discuss something simple and obvious with members of your side, yourself included. It's like beating your head against a brick wall.

Seanchai

Quote from: CRKrueger;389645Your attempts to stick needles in Benoist and Lord Vreeg over their ignoring you in order to make them reengage is way too transparent.

They ignored it? I could have sworn I read their responses to him. (Ignoring, FYI, involves not provide a response of any kind...)

Seanchai

Quote from: Peregrin;389660You see, I'm talking about a different, more personal kind of immersion.

If you like textual immersion, that's fine, but it's not the same thing.  It's a totally different experience -- you may as well not have the GUI.

Maybe the use of a command line doesn't matter to you, but it certainly interrupts my experience.

Well, then you like have some kind of mental illness, because textual immersion is just the same as graphical immersion.

Reminds me of something EGG talked about:

Quote from: EGGThere is no intimacy; it’s not live. [he said of online games] It’s being translated through a computer, and your imagination is not there the same way it is when you’re actually together with a group of people. It reminds me of one time where I saw some children talking about whether they liked radio or television, and I asked one little boy why he preferred radio, and he said, "Because the pictures are so much better."

Quote from: StormBringer;389578Honestly, how much time do you spend tweaking Windows, downloading updates, waiting for security patches, installing new software, praying the latest patch doesn't blow up your system, etc.?

I'll admit, mythTV should probably have at least the utility to install MySQL for you.  But it's a security issue; you don't want software running around that has essentially root access to stuff, even if it is only itself.

Goddamnit. Ignoring the fucker who broke the page formatting doesn't work when you go and quote him!