WotC isn't getting 0e-4e fan dollars or their attention. 0e-2e fans have the OSR and 3e fans have Paizo. 4e fans either have 13th Age, or like most "dead edition" fans just stick with the old books. In total, that's a lot of lost dollars and lost fans, even though all those fans were previously connected to their brand. And its bizarre in the age of PDF/POD/OGL when WotC could easily "support" multiple editions and sell WotC stuff to 0e-4e fans.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963410Their stated goal has been to be everyone's second favourite version of D&D.

That sounds so sad.

WotC: the sisterwife who gets fucked every other Tuesday.

Quote from: Spinachcat;963426And its bizarre in the age of PDF/POD/OGL when WotC could easily "support" multiple editions and sell WotC stuff to 0e-4e fans.

Selling pdf and PoD of stuff they own for 99.99% profit is one thing, it keeps the brand viable for everyone.  Actively creating content for versions of those older games is probably too outside the box for any large corporation.  They've had brand dilution drilled into their heads since Business 101.

Quote from: Spinachcat;963426That sounds so sad.

WotC is back to beating Paizo again, which isn't too bad considering Paizo was previously beating WotC with WotC's own system that they walked away from.

I think you're right in that if they played their cards right, they could have been the shepherds of the OSR designers profiting from them instead of being the whole reason the OSR was created.  You don't create an open license to create a market where other people can profit off supplements while you profit off the rules...and then stop selling the rules handing away the keys to the kingdom to former business partners creating your own competitor.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963429They've had brand dilution drilled into their heads since Business 101.

  And WotC in particular is convinced that 'splitting the fanbase' killed TSR.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963410You mean like they do now?  And no, I'm not being snarky, I'm dead serious here.  There is no vitriol or anger from WoTC.  They'd like it if you bought their stuff, but the idea seems to be that any edition or version you play is fine, no need to replace.  Their stated goal has been to be everyone's second favourite version of D&D.

I think they succeeded.

Quote from: Spinachcat;963426WotC isn't getting 0e-4e fan dollars or their attention. 0e-2e fans have the OSR and 3e fans have Paizo. 4e fans either have 13th Age, or like most "dead edition" fans just stick with the old books. In total, that's a lot of lost dollars and lost fans, even though all those fans were previously connected to their brand. And its bizarre in the age of PDF/POD/OGL when WotC could easily "support" multiple editions and sell WotC stuff to 0e-4e fans.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963429Selling pdf and PoD of stuff they own for 99.99% profit is one thing, it keeps the brand viable for everyone.  Actively creating content for versions of those older games is probably too outside the box for any large corporation.  They've had brand dilution drilled into their heads since Business 101.

Remember too - WoTC/Hasbro isn't only profiting from D&D when you buy a 5e book or an old PDF from them.  They're spending more resources cashing in on the D&D brand in other ways - such as the plethora of D&D themed board-games.  

Sure, buying an OSR game doesn't put $ in their pocket directly, but it makes you think fondly of D&D in general and more likely to think "Oooh cool, a D&D boardgame!".

It's worth keeping in mind that 3.x stuff wasn't selling well any more. Each supplement was selling more poorly than the last, and moreover, 3.x sales were just more and more stuff being sold to the same, aging customer base. An inability to attract younger, newer players is the death knell for a hobby. IIRC, 4e actually succeeded bringing in new players, it just lost so many old ones that D&D as a whole didn't grow. And then WotC mismanaged 4e so badly that even its fans got tired of the BS. Years on, I'm still not entirely sure what the point of Essentials was.

Quote from: CRKrueger;963429Selling pdf and PoD of stuff they own for 99.99% profit is one thing, it keeps the brand viable for everyone.  Actively creating content for versions of those older games is probably too outside the box for any large corporation.  They've had brand dilution drilled into their heads since Business 101.

Removing the PDFs from the online store was about brand dilution. Not making content for old systems is about profit margins. Sure, the WotC crew could make new 0e content, but it wouldn't sell nearly as well as 5e content. 5e is killing it so hard that its adventures are beating Pathfinder Bestiary 6 on Amazon. The 5e PHB sat at #1 for a long time...in all books. It's now #36 in all books. Same reason Valve won't make Half-Life 3. It's not that it would sell poorly, it's that they could generate far more revenue by using those resources elsewhere. Tales from the Yawning Portal is #761 in all books right now and peaked at #42. No legacy content would do that. It's just not worth the investment.

QuoteWotC is back to beating Paizo again, which isn't too bad considering Paizo was previously beating WotC with WotC's own system that they walked away from.

Yeah, not only is it beating Paizo, but by all accounts, it's growing the hobby and beating its past records. Hard to ask for more than that, really.

Quote from: SpinachatWotC isn't getting 0e-4e fan dollars or their attention. 0e-2e fans have the OSR and 3e fans have Paizo. 4e fans either have 13th Age, or like most "dead edition" fans just stick with the old books.

Sure they are. 5e was designed to attract fans of the older editions, and it seems to have done that pretty well. By the way, this is how the breakdown of D&D and its clones looks on roll20 in terms of games played:

Quote from: fearsomepirate;963487Yeah, not only is it beating Paizo, but by all accounts, it's growing the hobby and beating its past records. Hard to ask for more than that, really.

I don't have the source, but I've even heard that Paizo is doing as well as ever if not better - 5e is just bringing in new gamers and/or bring back old ones.  The whole 'rising tide lifts all boats' thing.

"Everyone's second favorite version" works - because it's the thing that you can get OSR fans, 3e fans, and 4e fans to play together.

I'll stick with my first favorite* if I'm going to play D&D at all, but if they're making money and drawing new people into roleplaying games, that's good for everyone interested in the hobby.

* I have no money to invest in another edition of a game I already own anyway!

I don't think Mearls or anyone actually said they wanted to be everyone's second favorite. That idea seems to have cropped up among the fan community to explain why 5e didn't seem to have any particular "wow" factor, no feature or concept that really jumps out. What Mearls said early on is they wanted to go back to the fundamentals and build on those.

http://www.gameinformer.com/themes/blogs/generic/post.aspx?WeblogApp=features&y=2012&m=01&d=17&WeblogPostName=what-is-the-next-dungeons-amp-dragons&GroupKeys=&PostPageIndex=1

It's currently my favorite. I had fun with 4e, I played it recently and just felt like each round of combat was an interminable slog. I have no desire to ever touch 3.x or Pathfinder. I love reading AD&D material, but only to crib stuff for my 5e sandbox. About the only classic I ever am interested in playing on its own merits is BECMI, or maybe 0e, but those are a bit orthogonal to what 5e does.  Basically, I think 5e is the best iteration of AD&D.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;963520I don't think Mearls or anyone actually said they wanted to be everyone's second favorite. That idea seems to have cropped up among the fan community to explain why 5e didn't seem to have any particular "wow" factor, no feature or concept that really jumps out. What Mearls said early on is they wanted to go back to the fundamentals and build on those.

http://www.gameinformer.com/themes/blogs/generic/post.aspx?WeblogApp=features&y=2012&m=01&d=17&WeblogPostName=what-is-the-next-dungeons-amp-dragons&GroupKeys=&PostPageIndex=1

It's currently my favorite. I had fun with 4e, I played it recently and just felt like each round of combat was an interminable slog. I have no desire to ever touch 3.x or Pathfinder. I love reading AD&D material, but only to crib stuff for my 5e sandbox. About the only classic I ever am interested in playing on its own merits is BECMI, or maybe 0e, but those are a bit orthogonal to what 5e does.  Basically, I think 5e is the best iteration of AD&D.

I remember hearing the quote in an audio interview.  I could be wrong.  Either way, it's doing it's job as being fun and accessible to as many people as possible.

I missed the whole 4e drama as I wasn't playing D&D at that time. I like 5e a lot, thinking of stripping it down to a BECMI/B/X level of minimalism but I do kinda like how feats make everyone who isn't a magic user a lot more dynamic.

Quote from: Brand55;963221I've heard similar stories from a lot of people. I was not a huge fan of 4e, but even I think 13th Age is a solid game and does what 4e did, only better. The way it handles monsters alone is enough to make it a lot easier for the GM to handle. The way it spreads out stat calculations is something I think D&D should have learned from, too.

I agree that 13th Age is an improved, more flexible, iteration of 4e. It's excellent fun. Our group moved straight to it when it came out, we'd grown bored of 4e by then (about 3 years playing, and the sameness/staleness was really shining through - it was great fun though for a solid 2 years).

In 13th Age I didnt really find that zones worked that well, or the icons. I think in hindsight actually I probably prefer 13th Age to 5e. Hmm I'll have to think about that more. The icons mechanic didnt work for us. But I reeeeally like the idea of the players being able to improvise some kind of event/history mid-play however, to fire those imaginations and keep people engaged/looking for improv opportunities. I find the Paizo Plot Twist cards are a better alternative to icons. Hmmmm I must ruminate on this idea further!

Quote from: cranebump;963362Scaling skill rolls just irked the shit outta me. Well, along with the incredible slog of combat.

True that was crap, along with skill challenges

Quote from: Psikerlord;963572True that was crap, along with skill challenges

Yeah, that, too. I remember thinking it seemed like a cool idea, until I ran it. Of course someone who's into 4E would  probably tell me I was doing it wrong.:-/

Quote from: cranebump;963597Yeah, that, too. I remember thinking it seemed like a cool idea, until I ran it. Of course someone who's into 4E would  probably tell me I was doing it wrong.:-/

The books are very ambiguous about how to set DCs. I eventually worked out my own DC chart that ignored PC level. For Heroic Tier it's identical to 5e's system:

10 - Easy
15 - Moderate
20 - Hard

Where 'easy' means 'easy for a heroic character' - a bog standard human with +0 will succeed 55% of the time.