No one hates "change." They hate having their expectations unfulfilled. As I am fond of pointing out, most of the things people said they hated about 4e are in 5e, and people love 5e. People expect D&D to "feel" like D&D. Problem is customers are terrible at articulating just what it is they want and just why it is they're unhappy, which is why letting customers tell you what to do is full pitfalls. In fact, 4e was in many ways a response to customer complains about 3.x. Problem is it upended basic expectations.

Really, I don't think people want a lot more than for there to be a big list of spells, a pyramid-shaped list of spell slots, and hit dice.

Quote from: cranebump;965571Speaking of that, all those discussions of "well, if you do this, this and this, it runs fine" pretty much serve as the big, red, flag for me concerning whether I'll bring something to the table long term. You hear a lot of that with 3E, regarding various combos and such, and definitely with 4E, regards HP values, especially.

Yeah, 4e is like some old British vintage car like my dad's old Jaguar. Getting it tuned, patched up, repaired so it actually works is either a labour of love, or not worth the hassle. 5e is a (pre-2000) Toyota - it just works.

Quote from: S'mon;965621Yeah, 4e is like some old British vintage car like my dad's old Jaguar. Getting it tuned, patched up, repaired so it actually works is either a labour of love, or not worth the hassle.

Plus you find out that "Old Jaguar" is a Yugo.

Quote from: CRKrueger;965623Plus you find out that "Old Jaguar" is a Yugo.

Well, I like 4e!

As I've noted before. 4e D&D GW I think showed what 4e could do to a degree retooled to be more RPG and less board game. But even players I showed it to who were unaware of 4e still noted that the combat system played like a board game or skirmish game. Its fairly streamlined and easy to pick up. Though the layout of the rules was really scattershot.

Quote from: Omega;965660As I've noted before. 4e D&D GW I think showed what 4e could do to a degree retooled to be more RPG and less board game. But even players I showed it to who were unaware of 4e still noted that the combat system played like a board game or skirmish game. Its fairly streamlined and easy to pick up. Though the layout of the rules was really scattershot.

Keep in mind that the focus of miniatures and grids were FAR in place with 3e and it's vast array of congo-line Flanking and Attacks of Opportunities and spells that gave extra actions and movement, etc. It wasn't worded as such but it was definitely ingrained into the system. Miniatures and grids were pretty much used exclusively in the PHB to depict what combat looked like.

Quote from: jeff37923;965487I disagree. There seemed to be a lot of people associated with WotC's Organized Play in Real Life that were encouraged by WotC to schill for the game and use their advertising message that if you did not like D&D 4E then you were playing substandard games out of nostalgia.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you as I don't see how that relates to my statement that what you hear on the net, especially via forums, is not representative of people in general or gamers in particular.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;965551Online forums are self-selected for a tiny sliver of the most vocal, passionate fans of a product. They are in no way representative of the customer base as a whole.

This is what I was trying to say, thanks.

Quote from: Batman;965666Keep in mind that the focus of miniatures and grids were FAR in place with 3e and it's vast array of congo-line Flanking and Attacks of Opportunities and spells that gave extra actions and movement, etc. It wasn't worded as such but it was definitely ingrained into the system. Miniatures and grids were pretty much used exclusively in the PHB to depict what combat looked like.

I thought the pogs and maps were a 3e thing and that 4e just focused on it?

Quote from: Omega;965723I thought the pogs and maps were a 3e thing and that 4e just focused on it?

That's certainly what it seemed like to me. I know I didn't bother with pogs before 4E.

Oh god, having flashbacks to 4e multiple stacking effects to keep track of. Some poor models were starting to develop their own rainbow wafer pedestal! The only saving grace was marks couldn't stack!

Quote from: Opaopajr;965738Oh god, having flashbacks to 4e multiple stacking effects to keep track of. Some poor models were starting to develop their own rainbow wafer pedestal! The only saving grace was marks couldn't stack!

Both 3.x and 4e suffered from the designers failing to understand that DMs are not computers.

Quote from: Voros;965717Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you as I don't see how that relates to my statement that what you hear on the net, especially via forums, is not representative of people in general or gamers in particular.

In the case of 4E, I was meeting rabid proponents in Real Life when I went to my FLGS and when I would look in on open table games. The vast majority of these weenies were part of WotC's Organized Play effort and went about their proselytizing with a vengeance.

Ah, got it. I can't imagine anyone being as rude in RL as they are on the net. I would expect it to end in fisticuffs or a face-stabbing.

Quote from: Voros;965753Ah, got it. I can't imagine anyone being as rude in RL as they are on the net. I would expect it to end in fisticuffs or a face-stabbing.

Believe it or not, if it is just over a game, I tend to just walk away and go do my own thing like an adult.

The only time Real Life 4rons became even remotely important beyond annoyances was at my FLGS. They were having a 50% off sale on all their 3.x stuff, I had just been paid, so I picked out about $200 worth of books (only $100!) and went up to the counter. The slug at the counter, instead of just ringing up my sale, began a tirade about how inferior any game except 4E was and how all other games were just played out of a sense of nostalgia. I tried to just be cool and say that I was there to simply make this purchase, the guy just ignored me and kept insulting my taste in games. So I waited until he had rung everything up and I walked out of the store and away from the sale.