TheRPGSite

So, how much do you think it will change?

My bet: Hardly at all.  Certainly nowhere near as radically as FR had to change.

Because Eberron was, essentially, already a "4e" world, a pre-fab piece of crap that was essentially an excuse for running "4ncounters".   Since FR wasn't "optimized" because it did stuff like have places that weren't for 4ncounters, places where roleplaying might happen but you don't have the chance to bring out the battlemat and D&D minis (TM, Sold Separately), it needed to be butchered in order to make it 4e-compatible.

Eberron, already being full of suck, a product of the worst corporate-board-member thinking of the 3.x era, will not have that problem.  It will require no extra injection of suck.

RPGPundit

in before circle jerk

Quote from: RPGPundit;291372So, how much do you think it will change?

My bet: Hardly at all.  Certainly nowhere near as radically as FR had to change.

Because Eberron was, essentially, already a "4e" world, a pre-fab piece of crap that was essentially an excuse for running "4ncounters".   Since FR wasn't "optimized" because it did stuff like have places that weren't for 4ncounters, places where roleplaying might happen but you don't have the chance to bring out the battlemat and D&D minis (TM, Sold Separately), it needed to be butchered in order to make it 4e-compatible.

Eberron, already being full of suck, a product of the worst corporate-board-member thinking of the 3.x era, will not have that problem.  It will require no extra injection of suck.

RPGPundit

The problem with Forgotten Realms, was there was too much backstory and powerful NPCs and they had to bring it down to Grey-box levels so that people could actually play there again. By 3E it had become a setting for book collectors so that they could marvel over Sean K Reynolds prose. They made a conscious attempt at De-fluffifying them during the 3E era, and it is now the most popular campaign that organized play has ever run, both in numbers of played events and raw number of players.

A catclysm like the Spellplague wasn't out of order because anyone who follows the history of the realms knows there have been a series of them (the Time of Troubles, etc). The reset was just the thing to increase people actually playing rather than just collecting the books.

Having talked to Ari on this topic Pundit's general thrust, stripped of the vitriol, is correct.  There isn't going to be a time line advancement, the upgrade to the 4e cosmology will boil down to grouping planes for ease of monster transfer, and no big cataclysm.  
I love Pundy's description of Eberron, though.  I mean, why would you even bother RPing in Eberron, it's not like the entire setting is an homage to a genre of literature/film or anything.  Oh wait.
I've done plenty of RPing in Eberron, and ran an Eberron campaign to wrap up my love affair with 3e, and a good time was had by all.  Which is, as always, the best revenge.

Here's the article that Sean wrote about it, right when the FR took a new direction, back in.. 2002.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;291374The problem with Forgotten Realms, was there was too much backstory and powerful NPCs and they had to bring it down to Grey-box levels so that people could actually play there again.  

I always call shenanigans when i see that. I always find it amusing when people think that they should be spoon-fed exactly how they should play a setting. The really sad thing is that 4e has spelt it out and people have actually been going, "oh, yeah! I can do what i like!" As if it's some kind of revelation.

I ran a FR campaign 3 years ago set in the Silver Marches. PCs never ran into anybody or any back story but I was not trying to keep it canonically or even true to the D&D rules. The Norse pantheon invaded, a single PC fought off an avatar of Tempus, etc. If I ran a FR game, I would definitely use FH instead.

But isn't it a Chekov's gun situation?  Why use all of those pages in the 3e FR book going over the big setting characters in such lascivious detail if the designers thought they would only rarely show up?  Doesn't what you actually put into the book have any effect on the setting?

I agree and disagree with Pundit.

I really liked Eberron with third ed, and I too think it will not change as radically as FR did. That, I do agree with.

Saying that Eberron was essentially a "piece of crap/excuse of a world to stage 4ncounters", however... I can't agree with that. The background is extensive and really original, in some areas. I particularly like the treatment of dragons and elves in that setting, the whole technomagic spin going on there, the background about the War, et cetera. It's a fine setting with 3rd ed, though I'd never think of running it with pre-2nd edition versions of the game.

FR however... is Grey box all the way at my game table, baby.

No, nothing you put in a book really has an effect on the setting. It's the rules, the PCs, and the PC's interaction with the world through the rules that has any actual effect on the setting. Unless said book changes the rules that the PCs use, it's mouthbreating and/or DM fodder. REALLY! What is brought into the gameworld is pretty much up to the DM and the players. The designers are all ultimately actual play's bitch.

And to keep on topic, I like Eberron but I would use something other than D&D.

What I thought was really really cool about FR back then was the tons and tons of aberrations and weirdo monsters. FR is like the iconic beholder/mindflayer setting. The aboleths.. and I love the sort of primitive empires like the Yuan-ti one and Chult, and the Mulhorand quasi-egyptian one (Imaskar?) I love genasi and mercenaries like the zhentarim.

What I didn't think was cool was having to know all about spellfire, which archmage controlled what area, the weave, the alternate planar setup, and the overly detailed lingo they wanted you to use.  It sort of mounted up, even if you tried to play down to a local area, like "Ok, this campaign will be set in the Moonshaes only.." you would still run across who the ruler of the region or  his 5 heroic sons were before too long, because if you didn't use that stuff it wasn't "real forgotten realms", and there was a lot of stupid arguiing about canon.

Eberron was designed with foreknowledge of this problem in mind. I think some of the rulers of the places are detailed, but the whole thing is a lot less set in stone and more focused on PCs being the heroes instead of just some random walk-on in the area. In XE for example, we would often have adventures where the players would have to save the city of Stormreach- and there was one where the PCs were called on to help avert a war between Karrnath and Breland.

...And the characters weren't much higher than 7th level or so.  

In LFR now, they still have a lot of the NPCS, but the player characters are the heroes. I think there's one adventure (Gorge of Gauros) that pits them directly against Szass Tam, and in last years Gen Con special, they run afoul of Fzoul Chembryl's plot. Much of the "destroyed realms" (the death of Mystra, for example) is functionally still around, it's just in ruins. For example, last night, my character was exploring a ruined temple of Mystra and set off a series of magical wards that predated the spell plague and it ended up spell-scarring her. She also discovered several statues dedicated to the 4 lost Yuir gods one time, when they ended up on an adventure that took them into Aglarond.

I bought some of the early FR campaign setting books, but as time went on the more they brought out the less I liked it.  It went from something I thought was kinda cool to something I really didn't like at all. I agree that it became a much better setting for novelists and fans of canon than it was as a gaming resource.

I think the points of light concept for 4e is a good approach - better than the over developed late 3e FR - although for home campaigns I'm wondering if people are using FR or making up their own game worlds?  (For the RPGA they obviously need a standardized world that D&D fans are familiar with, and next to Greyhawk or Krynn that would definitely be the Realms)

Personally I think I'd get into the new races, mechanics and tone of 4e more if it were tied to an original and more interesting and campaign world (eg. even someone's homebrew) rather than layered overtop of FR.

Edit:  Serious question for people playing 4e -- do you use FR exclusively or your own campaign world?

Quote from: DeadUematsu;291395No, nothing you put in a book really has an effect on the setting. It's the rules, the PCs, and the PC's interaction with the world through the rules that has any actual effect on the setting. Unless said book changes the rules that the PCs use, it's mouthbreating and/or DM fodder. REALLY! What is brought into the gameworld is pretty much up to the DM and the players. The designers are all ultimately actual play's bitch.

And to keep on topic, I like Eberron but I would use something other than D&D.

I agree that the designer's are play's bitch, but you're still getting something out of the book, or you wouldn't buy it. Eberron has a noir feel because of words written in the book and transmitted to the GM.  If we reduce a setting to only the things you use in your game, we really have nothing to talk about.  My Eberron could be so wildly different from your that there would be no association.  But that's unlikely, because the book transmit themes and ideas, since that's what books do.  The fact that there were a whole bunch of high level guys in the FR book certainly had an effect on  lots of peoples' games, even if it didn't effect yours.

Quote from: Stuart;291401I bought some of the early FR campaign setting books, but as time went on the more they brought out the less I liked it.  It went from something I thought was kinda cool to something I really didn't like at all. I agree that it became a much better setting for novelists and fans of canon than it was as a gaming resource.

I think the points of light concept for 4e is a good approach - better than the over developed late 3e FR - although for home campaigns I'm wondering if people are using FR or making up their own game worlds?  (For the RPGA they obviously need a standardized world that D&D fans are familiar with, and next to Greyhawk or Krynn that would definitely be the Realms)

Personally I think I'd get into the new races, mechanics and tone of 4e more if it were tied to an original and more interesting and campaign world (eg. even someone's homebrew) rather than layered overtop of FR.

Edit:  Serious question for people playing 4e -- do you use FR exclusively or your own campaign world?

Excuse my public masturbation:

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=11468

Quote from: Stuart;291401Edit:  Serious question for people playing 4e -- do you use FR exclusively or your own campaign world?

I use my own campaign world for my home campaign. I think most people use their own campaign worlds.

Living Realms is set in the Forgotten Realms.

The question itself makes me think you might be confused about what the living campaign actually is.

That's pretty frikkin' cool, Aos.  I love it.

Quote from: Stuart;291401Edit:  Serious question for people playing 4e -- do you use FR exclusively or your own campaign world?

I've only played 4e in homebrewed settings. I might try Eberron when it comes out. I don't like Vanilla Fantasy (Greyhawk, FR, Your Favourite Series of Fantasy Novels' Setting, etc.).

Quote from: Aos;291405Excuse my public masturbation:

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=11468

I love your map!

My own campaign is set on the same world (Aedorea) I have been using since just before the dawn of 3E, but a very very small part of it- I actually built it for an RPG system called The Window. Back in 1999.

Currently my campaign is only a single valley wide. Two towns (Perreluna and the dwarven barony of Copperpot Hold, invented by Drohem), and a multi-level dungeon. I am thinking of relocating some of my other multilevel dungeons down in the valley as well, and perhaps a 3rd town.

Quote from: counterspin;291403I agree that the designer's are play's bitch, but you're still getting something out of the book, or you wouldn't buy it. Eberron has a noir feel because of words written in the book and transmitted to the GM.  If we reduce a setting to only the things you use in your game, we really have nothing to talk about.  My Eberron could be so wildly different from your that there would be no association.  But that's unlikely, because the book transmit themes and ideas, since that's what books do.  The fact that there were a whole bunch of high level guys in the FR book certainly had an effect on  lots of peoples' games, even if it didn't effect yours.

You really do have to reduce a setting to things that you use in your game because there are things that don't just matter to your play and yes, that means that association is shot from the start. Seriously, trying to compare my FR game to Ed Greenwood's is a waste of breath. If we're talking campaign settings and not individual games, that's a whole another story. The problem is the people at the table insisted on including items that were ruining thier play because they insisted on playing the world like some psuedo-MMO where both the players and DMs were literally trying to keep tabs on a million other game sprites and ongoing activity threads - a frustrating endeavor for even a team of human beings. It is on THEM.

Quote from: KenHR;291409That's pretty frikkin' cool, Aos.  I love it.

Thanks, it's about as close as I come to contrinbuting around here. I just wish I had more time to put into it, but grad school is eating me alive- even this week, which is supposed to be spring break. I'm going to aim for a few more entries before the end of the weekend.

Quote from: Stuart;291401Edit:  Serious question for people playing 4e -- do you use FR exclusively or your own campaign world?

I use my own world - Shattered Isles - that I hope to publish before 5e comes out.   I have never been impressed with FR or Eberron.  If you like steampunk fantasy, I highly suggest looking at Iron Kingdoms / Warmachine.

I hope Dark Sun comes out with the PHB III.

My DM uses FR but it's highly non-canonical and most of used fluff is from Loudwater, a random name generator, and centers around Bane.

When I ran FR, I used a lot of stuff from Volo's Guide to the North, The North boxset, and Silver Marches but there was a lot of stuff that was also my own (for example; a great portion of Yartar was overtaken by undead and in the center of this mess, there was a great garden overseen by a powerful druidess of Chauntea; I made a lot of these huge footmarks because it seemed dumb given all of the magic being tossed about not to).

Quote from: Spinachcat;291440If you like steampunk fantasy, I highly suggest looking at Iron Kingdoms / Warmachine.

The little I've seen of Iron Kingdoms / Warmachine looks very good. :)

Hey... to take an example out of Eberron right here, "Stormreach" is cool name for a place, I think. It's infinitely better than "Shadowdark" (can't help but laugh each time I write it), in my opinion, so that doesn't necessarily have to do with some "old vs. new" paradigm in my mind. Just sayin'.

I hated and liked Eberron. I'll leave it at dislike. You won't find me playing in this setting, 3e or 4e...

Quote from: RPGPundit;291372Because Eberron was, essentially, already a "4e" world, a pre-fab piece of crap that was essentially an excuse for running "4ncounters".   Since FR wasn't "optimized" because it did stuff like have places that weren't for 4ncounters, places where roleplaying might happen but you don't have the chance to bring out the battlemat and D&D minis (TM, Sold Separately), it needed to be butchered in order to make it 4e-compatible.

Eberron, already being full of suck, a product of the worst corporate-board-member thinking of the 3.x era, will not have that problem.  It will require no extra injection of suck.

Not even close on this call! Eberron was one of the better settings for Dungeons & Dragons.

Multiple massive themed story arcs to base your campaigns in. Magic with both technology and advancement. Sentient golems (errr... Warforged). shades of Lycanthrope. Cyre (The Haunted Wastelands)... Xen'Drik, Argonnosen (Home of the Dragons), Sarlona (Home of the Outsiders and the Dreaming Darkness), The Five Kingdoms (Thrane, Aundair, Breland, Karnnath, & the Eldeen Reaches), The Monster Kingdoms (Shadow Marches & Droamm), The Ancient Ruins, The Last War (really the first, as far as the players are concerned), Vast unmapped continents to drop your own setting into, Elves and Dwarves that are that are not gloomy depressed refugees from the Tolkien sagas... Halflings that ride Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs. Drow that are not evil. Magical Shards that can be enchanted to create new magic. Unpredictable magic. The Draconic Phrophecies. Pirates & Freebooters in the Lhaazar Principalities, and much.. much... more.

In the hands of a competent GM, this can be a place for really great adventures. In the hands of a bad GM, it can be total suck , and an experience not worth repeating (unfortunately).

Let's not forget that this setting was originally created by a gamer, for other gamers, and was a nod to GM's everywhere unlike most of the settings and material we are seeing released with 4e (which is not even a nod to the players really, or the gm, it's a nod to a company).

I believe Eberron is going to be relegated to a smaller portion of the RPG market with 4e than it was with 3e, and while it will be relatively easy to translate many of the special effects for 4e, Eberron won't be able to improve 4e substantially.

Put pearls on a pig and it's still just a pig wearing pearls.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;291410I've only played 4e in homebrewed settings. I might try Eberron when it comes out. I don't like Vanilla Fantasy (Greyhawk, FR, Your Favourite Series of Fantasy Novels' Setting, etc.).

Eberron is a good choice for stealing some freaky stuff. Always has been in my case. I doubt I'd ever use it as a campign setting but as some place to continuously steal ideas from, it's pretty damn cool, IMO.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: GameDaddy;291534Let's not forget that this setting was originally created by a gamer, for other gamers,

No, a few pages were created by a gamer, for winning a contest by creating the most kitchen-sink generic concept possible.  The rest of the setting was created by corporate committee.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;291396What I didn't think was cool was having to know all about spellfire, which archmage controlled what area, the weave, the alternate planar setup, and the overly detailed lingo they wanted you to use.

Good thing none of those was required.

QuoteIt sort of mounted up, even if you tried to play down to a local area, like "Ok, this campaign will be set in the Moonshaes only.." you would still run across who the ruler of the region or  his 5 heroic sons were before too long, because if you didn't use that stuff it wasn't "real forgotten realms", and there was a lot of stupid arguiing about canon.

This only happens because of the players involved.  Find a group who doesn't have a continual supply of sand in their vaginas about canon.

QuoteEberron was designed with foreknowledge of this problem in mind. I think some of the rulers of the places are detailed, but the whole thing is a lot less set in stone and more focused on PCs being the heroes instead of just some random walk-on in the area. In XE for example, we would often have adventures where the players would have to save the city of Stormreach- and there was one where the PCs were called on to help avert a war between Karrnath and Breland.

This has nothing to do with the way the settings were written and everything to do with the style of play you and your group prefer, which is as close to 'rules as written' as possible.  No setting will ever really satisfy such a group; either being too light on rules, allowing lawyers to have a field day, or too heavy on rules, adding ever increasing amounts of handle time to task resolution.

QuoteIn LFR now...

You are referring to a style of play that doesn't apply to the vast majority of players.

Quote from: RPGPundit;291372So, how much do you think it will change?

My bet: Hardly at all.  Certainly nowhere near as radically as FR had to change.

Because Eberron was, essentially, already a "4e" world, a pre-fab piece of crap that was essentially an excuse for running "4ncounters".   Since FR wasn't "optimized" because it did stuff like have places that weren't for 4ncounters, places where roleplaying might happen but you don't have the chance to bring out the battlemat and D&D minis (TM, Sold Separately), it needed to be butchered in order to make it 4e-compatible.

Eberron, already being full of suck, a product of the worst corporate-board-member thinking of the 3.x era, will not have that problem.  It will require no extra injection of suck.

RPGPundit

My personal preference for Eberron is at odds with your personal preference against Eberron. I liked it, you didn't. 'Nuff said.

Now, while you think that Eberron is full of suck, for something that sucked it appears to have sold pretty well.

So, with 4E Eberron coming out, I don't think the important question is how much will the setting change. I think the important question will be the same one for Planescape and Dark Sun in 4E.

Will the 4E consumer have to buy any other extra books besides the PHB1, DMG1, and MM1 in order to support their play in Eberron 4E? Will rules for shifters be in the setting book or do 4E gamers have to have the PHB2 as well to fully utilize Eberron 4E? In short, how much buy in will be required by 4E gamers to fully use the settings that are coming out?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;291411I love your map!

Seconded.

It looks like something created for Encounter Critical. And I mean that only in the most positive way.

Well, I never played in Eberron, it wasn't my bag.  I do recognize that it is a popular and well put together setting, though.

As for Forgotten Realms, my thinking is somewhere in the middle.  I agree that the setting became overdeveloped.  And while it's all good and well to say "find player's who don't care about canon", it's far easier said than done.  So, yeah, I tend to shy away from pre-4th FR because I don't keep up with all the canon.

That said, I'm not sure the 4e changes were absolutely necessary and I'm not sure I like some of them.  I also don't think the "land o' super NPCs" was necessarily a problem.

Right now, I'm actually just using the implied setting presented in the DMG.  It contained enough to get my campaign started (at some point it will likely shift to FR).

Like others, I'd love to see a 4e Dark Sun.  I'd also like to see a 4e Al-Qadim (yeah, I know that's a lost cause).  My favorite setting from the days of old was probably Ravenloft, but I'm not so sure about the 4e version because Ravenloft works better for lower-powered games IMO (though I did do a one-shot of 4e set in Ravenloft and that worked fine).

I think most of these are a lost cause.  They went with FR because its the big money-maker, and Eberron because its WoTC's baby. Look for future settings to be "new" hipper "cool" settings that they will design full of corporate pre-fab extra-kewlawesomeness that will utterly SUCK.  They will be two-dimensional props for people to have battles and encounters in, full of "kewl" names like the "shadowfell" and won't have any of those nasty concerns about emulation or immersion to get in the way at all.  They'll be utterly prefab to have no life or personality whatsoever (apart from the shallow shouting-I'M-AWESOME!!!!-every-second-really-loudly-thinking-that-makes-you-awesome hideous personality), and the retards at WoTC and the suits at Hasbro will actually think that's wonderful, try to sell it as wonderful, and deride earlier settings for being actual worlds as if that was a bad thing.

Seriously, Eberron will seem like the most coherent, realistic, in-depth and not-at-all-overpowered world ever compared to what will be coming.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;291673(apart from the shallow shouting-I'M-AWESOME!!!!-every-second-really-loudly-thinking-that-makes-you-awesome hideous personality),


RPGPundit

Quoted for irony.

QuoteHalflings that ride Dinosaurs.

:( cringe-cringe-cringe

I think the only thing that would make it worse would be manga-style artwork.

Quote from: RPGPunditI think most of these are a lost cause...

Look for future settings to be "new" hipper "cool" settings

So you're saying Dark Sun and Spelljammer won't happen because they aren't cool enough? Really?

Quote from: beejazz;291774So you're saying Dark Sun and Spelljammer won't happen because they aren't cool enough? Really?

Yup. Their "hipness" is a totally late-80s/early-90s hipness. If revived, they would have to be upgraged to a late-2000s-hipness, or even redone as a "retro"-style hipness.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;291790Yup. Their "hipness" is a totally late-80s/early-90s hipness. If revived, they would have to be upgraged to a late-2000s-hipness, or even redone as a "retro"-style hipness.

RPGPundit

As opposed to all the crazy shit Gygax put in Greyhawk or Arneson put in Blackmoor?  You know, 70's style hipness.  OD&D was dripping in it.

Quote from: kregmosier;291683:( cringe-cringe-cringe

I think the only thing that would make it worse would be manga-style artwork.

When I found out about this, people in my old gaming group were like, "Wow, awesome!" and thought it was both hilarious and cool. I was kinda like, "hmm, it's... interesting?"

It's just the sort of element that kills the fantasy feel of the setting for me.

I liked the idea of the Warforged and played one in a short Eberron campaign, until I realized it meant every fucking NPC was going to treat my character like dirt even after I got to prove my worth. It was a GM problem, but it left a bad taste in my mouth, not that Eberron impressed me on its own to begin with...

Quote from: jgants;291791You know, 70's style hipness.  

(http://www.artistsuk.co.uk/acatalog/TolkienPoster_Cauty.jpg)

(http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lg01469+tanelorn-by-rodney-matthews-poster.jpg)

(http://homepage.mac.com/antallan/images/matthews/time.jpg)

Quote from: droog;291798(http://www.artistsuk.co.uk/acatalog/TolkienPoster_Cauty.jpg)

(http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lg01469+tanelorn-by-rodney-matthews-poster.jpg)

(http://homepage.mac.com/antallan/images/matthews/time.jpg)

Cue Leonard Nimoy singing the hobbit song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQtyJZhV2lQ)

Okay, for that you get this: The Battle of Evermore (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7600609615392613138)

The dark lord rides in force tonight
And time will tell us all...

.....

Suddenly I'm not feeling so bad about the mullet.

Quote from: jgants;291791As opposed to all the crazy shit Gygax put in Greyhawk or Arneson put in Blackmoor?  You know, 70's style hipness.  OD&D was dripping in it.

Sure.
But the real difference is that that Greyhawk and Blackmoor had something else besides hipness: content and meaning.
So did Dark Sun and even Spelljammer (though precious little in the last case), for that matter.

But Eberron? Its ONLY "hip". There's nothing there except Poochie.

And I'm sure that whatever setting the geniuses behind 4e try to come up with, it'll be "TOTAL EXXXXTREME POOCHIE".

RPGPundit

Eberron is pretty much the best setting that I've read in the past years. And that is so, because Eberron is a situation. Two years have past since the Last War. A dozen newly independent states. Peace, for now.

And progress! Not another setting caught in stasis because of wizardry, but magical progress. A whole uncivilized continent to explore, to conquer, and to exploit.

And all the Fantasy cliches and D&D-isms turned up-side down! The ruins next to your village aren't elven. They are the remains of the great GOBLIN empire. Drow are savages on an empty continent. Halflings ride dinosaurs. Elves venerate their undead deathless ancestors. And before they were pacated by the humans dwarves were only savages warring with each other.


Really, when I read Eberron I had a dozen ideas for campaigns. A group of scientists from Korranberg University? A group working for the Aundair (or Breland odr Mror) Secret Service? Warforged devoted to the Lord of Blades? Anything. But not random adventurers.

Quote from: RPGPundit;291883And I'm sure that whatever setting the geniuses behind 4e try to come up with, it'll be "TOTAL EXXXXTREME POOCHIE".

RPGPundit

I double dog dare you to write up a parody campaign for 4E based around the concept of "TOTAL EXXXXTREME POOCHIE".

Quote from: RPGPundit;291883But the real difference is that that Greyhawk and Blackmoor had something else besides hipness: content and meaning.

??? I'd be curious to know exactly what is this "content and meaning" to which you refer.  And I say that as someone who has done most of his gaming in Greyhawk, and happily so.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;292848??? I'd be curious to know exactly what is this "content and meaning" to which you refer.  And I say that as someone who has done most of his gaming in Greyhawk, and happily so.

It's an interesting claim by Pundit, particularly since Greyhawk was not originally designed as a campaign world but grown organically based pretty much on "shit Gygax thought was cool".

Now, Gygax was a history and mythology guy, so those influences do creep into the game.  And since Pundit is also a history guy, maybe he feels that gives the setting more intellectual pedigree or something.

I, on the other hand, think that a world made of up "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" is no inherintly better or worse than "random shit a guy thought was cool from Patridge Family albums and Golden Girls episodes".  It's the end result that counts - is the world fun to play in or not?  I could give a shit less what the influences / sources of inspiration were.

I think that "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" does end up creating more depth of content (assuming the guy in question was like Gygax, and not say an ignoramus or a 13 year old), than "random shit a committee of corporate executives thought would maximize their selling potential by selling fake-cool to nerds".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;292956I think that "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" does end up creating more depth of content (assuming the guy in question was like Gygax, and not say an ignoramus or a 13 year old), than "random shit a committee of corporate executives thought would maximize their selling potential by selling fake-cool to nerds".

RPGPundit

How does FR fit into that, considering that it was thought up by a 13-16 yo. who inserted all sorts of "Magical Toronto" content? And has been worked over for nearly 20 years by corp execs who wanted to sell fake-cool? I know it's one of your favourite settings, but it seems like the principles you're setting up for Greyhawk here would lump FR together with Eberron.

Quote from: RPGPundit;292956I think that "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" does end up creating more depth of content (assuming the guy in question was like Gygax, and not say an ignoramus or a 13 year old), than "random shit a committee of corporate executives thought would maximize their selling potential by selling fake-cool to nerds".

I agree that one way is more likely to end up with a more interesting campaign world to game in than the other way.

My point is just that in the end, all that matters is how fun the world is to play in.  I really don't care about intellectual "depth" or whatever.  I mean, Tekumel is the most meticulously designed and intellectual setting ever made, and I wouldn't touch it with a 15 foot pole.

Can the 4e designers come out with a really cool campaign setting?  It remains to be seen.  TSR in the later days was very much a corporate assembly line factory, and yet we still ended up with some of the best and most well-liked settings like Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Al-Qadim, and Birthright (admittedly, we also got a couple of clunkers like Maztica and Spelljammer).

Quote from: droog;291808Okay, for that you get this: The Battle of Evermore (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7600609615392613138)

The dark lord rides in force tonight
And time will tell us all...

Robert Plant & Co. is simply great. With a story and song that's put together this well, it's not about the money. Because it's all presented in harmony, you get extra depth that evokes, and it inspires the imagination. Sure there's the battle of Evermore, but there's a whole campaign and the song hints at many possible untold stories. Just Jimmy Page's work with the guitar in this song alone is strong enough to create a backdrop for a fantasy MMO or RPG.

Quote from: jgants;292867It's the end result that counts - is the world fun to play in or not?  I could give a shit less what the influences / sources of inspiration were.

Thank you!

KoOS

Quote from: RPGPundit;292956I think that "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" does end up creating more depth of content (assuming the guy in question was like Gygax, and not say an ignoramus or a 13 year old), than "random shit a committee of corporate executives thought would maximize their selling potential by selling fake-cool to nerds".

Like Pseudoephedrine said, your latter description pretty much fits your beloved FR (in its published pre-4e form, anyway) to a "T."  And that's forgetting about all the meaningless cool shit thrown into Greyhawk as well, like UFOs in the Barrier Peaks.  Neither are exactly Tekumel in terms of intellectual depth but then, which settings actually get played?  I think content and meaning are mostly onanistic criteria for judging D&D settings.

KoOS

The Vibe I got from Ebberron when I read it (although I didn't actually play in it, almost once) is actually very, VERY different from the vibe I get when I played 4e. Ebberron was made specifically for the 3.0/3.5 ruleset and it shows. I don't think the super powerful, all action all the time heroes of 4e really fit in with the setting. To me, Ebberron takes all the non-fantasy Pulp tropes (Dinosaurs, Hard Boiled Detectives, Dinosaurs, Lasers, Robots) and creates a fantasy setting based on including them.

4e is not a "Pulp" like game at all.

Quote from: KrakaJak;293047The Vibe I got from Ebberron when I read it (although I didn't actually play in it, almost once) is actually very, VERY different from the vibe I get when I played 4e. Ebberron was made specifically for the 3.0/3.5 ruleset and it shows. I don't think the super powerful, all action all the time heroes of 4e really fit in with the setting. To me, Ebberron takes all the non-fantasy Pulp tropes (Dinosaurs, Hard Boiled Detectives, Dinosaurs, Lasers, Robots) and creates a fantasy setting based on including them.

4e is not a "Pulp" like game at all.

:confused:  I'm confused.  

Pulp was all about high-action stories with nearly-superhuman heroes: Buck Rogers, Doc Savage, Conan, Flash Gordon, Green Lama, Ka-Zar, The Phantom Detective, The Shadow...

Pulp was the pre-cursor to the superheros, after all.

Heck, if anything, the powers of 4e characters resemble Pulp heroes more than ever (as true superheroes have powers far beyond what the average D&D party have).

Quote from: jgants;293054:confused:  I'm confused.  

Pulp was all about high-action stories with nearly-superhuman heroes: Buck Rogers, Doc Savage, Conan, Flash Gordon, Green Lama, Ka-Zar, The Phantom Detective, The Shadow...

Pulp was the pre-cursor to the superheros, after all.

Heck, if anything, the powers of 4e characters resemble Pulp heroes more than ever (as true superheroes have powers far beyond what the average D&D party have).

D&D 4e is action alright, but it's not like Pulp at all.

By 11th Level D&D 4e characters are far beyond even Golden Age superheroes. By 21st level, they're crazy, cracked out, teleporting anime characters. It has way more in common with Final Fantasy or Warcraft than any pulps I've ever read (Doc Savage, The Shadow, Conan, Solomon Kane, Lovecraft).

Really, go read Howard's Conan and tell me D&D 4e is anything like it.

Eberron isn't like it either, but it has a lot in common with the over the top Doc Savage stories or the Shadow.

Quote from: KrakaJak;293058D&D 4e is action alright, but it's not like Pulp at all.

By 11th Level D&D 4e characters are far beyond even Golden Age superheroes. By 21st level, they're crazy, cracked out, teleporting anime characters. It has way more in common with Final Fantasy or Warcraft than any pulps I've ever read (Doc Savage, The Shadow, Conan, Solomon Kane, Lovecraft).

Really, go read Howard's Conan and tell me D&D 4e is anything like it.

Eberron isn't like it either, but it has a lot in common with the over the top Doc Savage stories or the Shadow.

Admittedly, I was restricting my thinking to the heroic tier - mostly because I've had very little to do with the later tiers yet.  I agree with you that by 11th level, they are noticably beyond that (of course, that's been true of every edition of D&D).  Still not sure a paragon D&D party could take on the X-Men or whatever, though.

Quote from: KrakaJak;293058By 11th Level D&D 4e characters are far beyond even Golden Age superheroes. By 21st level, they're crazy, cracked out, teleporting anime characters. It has way more in common with Final Fantasy or Warcraft than any pulps I've ever read (Doc Savage, The Shadow, Conan, Solomon Kane, Lovecraft).

In that case, Eberron can hardly be made for third edition. The power level in 4e might be higher at first level but is much, much lower at 11th, and even more so at 21st level.

In fact Keith said that 4e would be even better for Eberron. He was talking about the tricks he used to fit NPCs into the 3e class system, and how wouldn't have to this with 4th edition.

Quote from: KrakaJak;2930474e is not a "Pulp" like game at all.

My problem with Eberron is that how to achieve a pulp feel, a noir feel, or a pulp noir feel isn't really discussed in the books. It can be done without such advice, but, to my mind, such genre incursions are the raison d'etre and sine qua non for Eberron.

Seanchai

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;292966How does FR fit into that, considering that it was thought up by a 13-16 yo. who inserted all sorts of "Magical Toronto" content? And has been worked over for nearly 20 years by corp execs who wanted to sell fake-cool? I know it's one of your favourite settings, but it seems like the principles you're setting up for Greyhawk here would lump FR together with Eberron.

I have always been firmly of the opinion that the FR that I love, the one that is awesome, the one that blew everyone away, was ED GREENWOOD'S 1e AD&D FR.

The thing that utterly ruined FR was a bunch of TSR (and later WoTC) suits and idiots filling in the empty spaces in FR with a bunch of pre-fab crap.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jgants;292967I agree that one way is more likely to end up with a more interesting campaign world to game in than the other way.

My point is just that in the end, all that matters is how fun the world is to play in.  I really don't care about intellectual "depth" or whatever.  I mean, Tekumel is the most meticulously designed and intellectual setting ever made, and I wouldn't touch it with a 15 foot pole.

The point here isn't that it be "intellectual"; its that it have a feeling of being real, "lived in", not "pre-fabricated" and "unplayed in".

Its a about the IMMERSION.

Tekumel is a real lived in campaign world, sure; but its problem is that it isn't even human.  Its so alien that no one can relate to it.

Quotewell-liked settings like Ravenloft,

The 2e version mostly sucked.

QuoteDark Sun,

Which they had the record speed of ruining by the end of the very first novel series.

QuoteAl-Qadim,

Never lived up to its potential because it got tacked on as part of the Extravaganza of Filling FR With Shit That Didn't Belong There.

Quoteand Birthright (admittedly, we also got a couple of clunkers like Maztica and Spelljammer).

Crap, crap, and crap, all three. Planescape too. All crap.

RPGPundit

Pundit, before you say that it is all crap, crap, crap, have you taken a look at some of the Dungeon and Dragon magazine 3E versions of the settings?

I agree, the original Spelljammer setting was utter crap and makes me wince to think about it, but the 3E version which showed up as a d20 mini-game in Dungeon/Polyhedron #92 made it pretty cool and feasable extension of "magic as technology". The d20 mini-game of Omega World which appeared in Dungeon/Polyhedron #93 was a version of Gamma World second only to the original Gamma World (and a shitload better than the Bruce Baugh piece of crap that was produced). Then there are the Dark Sun setting articles for 3E, all of the craptasticness that was infused into the novels has been rendered mostly moot by placing the setting 100 years in the future - but it still retains the feral beauty of the setting in 3E.

Not all of the next generation setting stuff sucks ass. A lot depends on who does it.

Heh. Spelljammer is among my favorite settings! :D

I really like the AD&D Ravenloft, Birthright and Planescape too. These settings certainly don't embody what I see as the basic outlook or assumptions of the base game, but they're a nice departure from them. I certainly don't think they're utter crap at all.

Quote from: RPGPundit;293112I have always been firmly of the opinion that the FR that I love, the one that is awesome, the one that blew everyone away, was ED GREENWOOD'S 1e AD&D FR.

This is my favorite version as well, and I've been running FR in each edition of AD&D/D&D and each edition of the FR setting.

Quote from: RPGPundit;293112I have always been firmly of the opinion that the FR that I love, the one that is awesome, the one that blew everyone away, was ED GREENWOOD'S 1e AD&D FR.

The thing that utterly ruined FR was a bunch of TSR (and later WoTC) suits and idiots filling in the empty spaces in FR with a bunch of pre-fab crap.

Agreed that the original gray box for FR was the best version.

I didn't see it so much as a problem with pre-fab crap added by suits as it was a problem with metaplot constantly changing everything (the same issues I quickly had with Ravenloft and Dark Sun).  But, metaplot was popular in the 90s, by pretty much every RPG company, for some reason.

My ideal version of FR would be to take the 1e box set and then expand it to include blurbs on every area named on the map.  One of my pet peeves, with nearly every RPG setting ever produced, is that there's all these cool sounding places named on campaign maps that never get a mention in the fucking book (yes, I know it's a combination of wanting to sell future supplements + leaving areas open for the DMs to develop on their own, but it still annoys the shit out of me).

Quote from: RPGPundit;293113The point here isn't that it be "intellectual"; its that it have a feeling of being real, "lived in", not "pre-fabricated" and "unplayed in".

Its a about the IMMERSION.

OK, got ya.

I don't really have an issue with immersion in pre-fab worlds, myself.  Seems like a problem with over-thinking it, really.  If I didn't know which campaign worlds were developed organically and which were pre-fab, I doubt I could tell the difference.

Quote from: RPGPundit;293113The 2e version mostly sucked.

I'd have to disagree with you there (at least in the beginning before the metaplot explosion).  But then I'm a big horror fan.

Quote from: RPGPundit;293113Which they had the record speed of ruining by the end of the very first novel series.

I agree completely.  Dark Sun was a spectacular example of the stupidity of metaplot.

Quote from: RPGPundit;293113Never lived up to its potential because it got tacked on as part of the Extravaganza of Filling FR With Shit That Didn't Belong There.

To be fair, that started well back in 1e with Kara-Tur and the Hordelands.

Quote from: RPGPundit;293113Crap, crap, and crap, all three. Planescape too. All crap.

I would have thought you would have been a bigger fan of Birthright, since it was the first D&D world that actually tried to be a bit more historical / mythology oriented (with focuses on wars and battles between nations, different ethnicities of humans, and monsters being legendary and relatively unique).

Quote from: jeff37923;293115Pundit, before you say that it is all crap, crap, crap, have you taken a look at some of the Dungeon and Dragon magazine 3E versions of the settings?

I was only talking about the 2e versions produced by TSR.

QuoteI agree, the original Spelljammer setting was utter crap and makes me wince to think about it, but the 3E version which showed up as a d20 mini-game in Dungeon/Polyhedron #92 made it pretty cool and feasable extension of "magic as technology". The d20 mini-game of Omega World which appeared in Dungeon/Polyhedron #93 was a version of Gamma World second only to the original Gamma World (and a shitload better than the Bruce Baugh piece of crap that was produced). Then there are the Dark Sun setting articles for 3E, all of the craptasticness that was infused into the novels has been rendered mostly moot by placing the setting 100 years in the future - but it still retains the feral beauty of the setting in 3E.

Not all of the next generation setting stuff sucks ass. A lot depends on who does it.

The Polyhedron stuff was mostly excellent, what I read of it. Omega World is without a doubt one of the best version of Gamma World ever.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jgants;293140Agreed that the original gray box for FR was the best version.

I didn't see it so much as a problem with pre-fab crap added by suits as it was a problem with metaplot constantly changing everything (the same issues I quickly had with Ravenloft and Dark Sun).  But, metaplot was popular in the 90s, by pretty much every RPG company, for some reason.

In the context of this discussion, there's no difference. The novels/metaplot were very much a product of corporate thinking.


RPGPundit