Quote from: PseudoephedrineNot really. Once again, I'm making the point that these mysterious and terrible "influences" really don't determine much about the game at all compared to actual play and the culture of interpretation and use that arises around the game. Exalted, for example claims the Iliad as a source, despite having almost nothing at all in common with it.

Yes, but that's because the bibliographies in any of White Wolf's products are not meant as a reflection of what's actually in the game, but as an opportunity for the pretentious asshole game designers to try to show off how clever they are.

RPGPundit

Quote from: ColonelHardissonNot me. I was just wondering if they had included a list of their influences in the DMG. I didn't expect them to, but I didn't want to simply assume so. I actually don't care if WoW or anime/manga or Magic were influences. I assume they were, each to different extents, as I'm sure there were many other literary, cinematic, and historical influences. I'm just disappointed they didn't include a "required reading/viewing" list.

It appears to me that the "inspired reading" list is a thing of the past as far as D&D is concerned.

What you do get to see a lot (more) are sections entitled "movies that inspired me/this product". See Eberron Campaign Setting, or pretty much any introduction to a Paizo Pathfinder product these days (<---- officially nominated for the "RPG Satan Award (TM)" 2008 by the Settmaster).

I guess you know that free article in online Dragon magazine , where Heinsoo and co. talk about their key influences when designing 4th edition. A telling excerpt (as I know Pundit doesn't like us just to link things):

Quote from: HeinsooMy favorite non-D&D roleplaying games are Feng Shui (a mélange of all Hong Kong action films), Over the Edge (conspiracy and fringe play on a polyglot Mediterranean island), and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha as it appeared in Runequest and Heroquest. Cults of Prax, a Runequest supplement that detailed the religious powers, hierarchies, and myths of a wasteland section of Glorantha, was probably the single most influential RPG product in my life, given that it set me on the path to study anthropology.

The article doesn't mention literary influences, unfortunately.

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, but that's because the bibliographies in any of White Wolf's products are not meant as a reflection of what's actually in the game, but as an opportunity for the pretentious asshole game designers to try to show off how clever they are.

RPGPundit

No shit. I mean, c'mon already. Exalted also lists anime and video games. Can you believe the temerity of those art fags over at White Wolf?

Quote from: James McMurrayNo shit. I mean, c'mon already. Exalted also lists anime and video games. Can you believe the temerity of those art fags over at White Wolf?

Ah, but they claim that the WAY they watch it is different, and therefore superior.

Just like they try to claim that Exalted is not just a powergaming wet dream; its nothing like those "powergames" like D&D or RIFTS, because it is "a game about dealing with the issues of massive power", and not a mindless prole game like those others.

Again, Exalted is like artsy-porn movies for people who are too pseudo-intellectual to admit they like watching titties as much as the rest of us. Its a way for the WW-swine to powergame and yet still look down on powergamers.

RPGPundit

Your stupidity makes me want to vomit. It is actually a feelable urge when reading those posts of yours. I congratulate you. There are only very few things so stupid.

If that's aimed at me, thanks! I aim to please (myself). If that means you vomit, please post pics so I can link to them in my sig.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineNot really. Once again, I'm making the point that these mysterious and terrible "influences" really don't determine much about the game at all compared to actual play and the culture of interpretation and use that arises around the game. Exalted, for example claims the Iliad as a source, despite having almost nothing at all in common with it.

Personally, and I'm sorry that I haven't articulated this as well as I would like, I enjoy seeing what influences most affected the designers of a given game. I'm not all that concerned with how the game is actually supposed to be played as envisioned by the designers. I'm just curious to see what they read or watched or played that inspired them to design a game. I'm always interested in hearing about new books, movies, TV shows, or games that I may not have heard about before.

As I mentioned up-thread, I think GURPS is pretty much the gold standard when it comes to citing their influences in a coherent way. D&D, at least since Gygax's tenure, has been pretty reluctant to name any specific influences.

Windjammer, while I see what you're saying about Paizo (except the RPG Satan thing, which I don't understand; I think they're a pretty cool game company), I'll point to their Planet Stories line of books that reprint a lot of old "planetary romances" like R.E. Howard's "Almuric" or fantasy like C.L. Moore's very, very good "Jirel of Joiry" stories. These books seem to be reprinting authors Gygax mentioned in his reading list (as well as Gygax himself). Some of them reprint stories that are not the ones the author is famous for or which are not ones Gygax specifically mentioned (Michael Moorcock's "Mars" stories, for example). Some of them, though, reprint some damned fine stuff, like Leigh Brackett's The Secret of Sinharat/People of the Talisman, that appear by name on Gygax's list. I don't know if all that was intentional, but it seems like it to me. Anyway, my point is that Paizo is showing their influences by actually publishing what ones they can.

Quote from: RPGPunditAh, but they claim that the WAY they watch it is different, and therefore superior.

Just like they try to claim that Exalted is not just a powergaming wet dream; its nothing like those "powergames" like D&D or RIFTS, because it is "a game about dealing with the issues of massive power", and not a mindless prole game like those others.

Got some page quotes for that?

Hardisson> That's a reasonable position. If you're interested in that, I'd recommend checking out Mike Mearls' blog, which lists what he's been reading and playing for the past few years.

I offer my apologies for bringing up the "mysterious" and "terrible" influences. As you mention, I don't think I've seen a list like in the old days; the only thing I have seen are the ones referenced in that thread (and I wish I could find the original).

Contrary to Pseudo's characterization, I do not think they are "mysterious" nor "terrible" (hence the quotes). The former because the Bo9S was a specific mention, and that includes it's influences right in the text - nothing mysterious about that. They are not terrible, simply different. And as I said in that thread, it's more about coming to the realization that the influences with which I am familiar are apparently not the influences of the generation(s) of gamers later. Makes sense.

If Pseudo's point is "it doesn't matter," we will agree to disagree (which, IIRC, is something he dislikes) and leave it at that.

It's a long way of saying: I have only seen Bo9S mentioned as a direct influence. Frankly, however, I haven't been looking at influences since way back then...

Quote from: James McMurrayIf that's aimed at me, thanks! I aim to please (myself). If that means you vomit, please post pics so I can link to them in my sig.

It was aimed at pundit and his general and sweeping spitting of hatred at fellow gamers for daring to like something different than he does.

Darn. And here I was hoping I'd made someone physically ill. I guess my rhetoric hasn't hit its full power yet.

You lack the prerequisite feats: Pedantry, Ass, and Great Ass.

Quote from: AosYou lack the prerequisite feats: Pedantry, Ass, and Great Ass.

I took a bard prestige class that gave me Great Ass without the prerequisite feats. Does that count?

Keep that up and you'll break the game.