Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerNot have any specific gods at all.  Leave that for setting-specific supplements, and instead include all necessary rules needed for rolling your own.  Let the folks use their imaginations.

I strongly agree with this.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerOn a related note, I think when I write another article (after the ones I have planned) I'll attempt to use what I learned in my Religious Studies classes and apply it to tabletop RPG setting design when it comes to rolling your own faiths and gods.

That would be VERY interesting to read, Bradford! If you remove all the decent game designers who are utterly ignorant and/or intolerant of religion beyond their personal creed, if any, the number left standing would be less than the fingers on my hand. If you limit it to well-known, active designers, you may not have anyone there.

-clash

i liked the simplicity of the scarred lands pantheon.  one god per alignment, it fit the system (3.x, alignments) and the world (scarn) very well.  

i'd like to see what you come up with too, bradford.  something nice & straightforward, that covers the basics?  you know, war, fertility, death, fire, water, wind, maybe a few more?

I'm cool with having a bunch of pre-genned gods. Never really bugged me before.

Someone mentioned maybe having a way to "roll up" gods. Honestly... a random deity generator would be pretty awesome.

Quote from: beejazzI'm cool with having a bunch of pre-genned gods. Never really bugged me before.

Someone mentioned maybe having a way to "roll up" gods. Honestly... a random deity generator would be pretty awesome.

So very seconded.  Generator or chart, I care not.

Quote from: SeanI strongly agree with this.

Then you'd get complaints from people like me who don't have time to create pantheons from scratch.

Quote from: James McMurrayThen you'd get complaints from people like me who don't have time to create pantheons from scratch.

Which is what the "setting specific supplements" that Bradford mentioned are for.

One thing I always appreciated about D&D, even when I didn't like D&D, was that it was more or less setting-free, a template I could use on my own ideas.  Having come around to enjoying 3.x, I have to say that I don't much care for the inclusion of the various deities in the PHB, nor the integral role they play with regard to some of the entries in the MM.  Continuing this integrated role into the 4th edition just mucks with the general utility of D&D as a rules kit.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhich is what the "setting specific supplements" that Bradford mentioned are for.

One thing I always appreciated about D&D, even when I didn't like D&D, was that it was more or less setting-free, a template I could use on my own ideas.  Having come around to enjoying 3.x, I have to say that I don't much care for the inclusion of the various deities in the PHB, nor the integral role they play with regard to some of the entries in the MM.  Continuing this integrated role into the 4th edition just mucks with the general utility of D&D as a rules kit.

!i!

Yep.

Why to do you even need a pantheon in the core rules? Why not just associate Divine powers, at the mechanical level, with the God of Light, or God of Nature, etc., and leave the setting-specific stuff to the DM or the setting product?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhich is what the "setting specific supplements" that Bradford mentioned are for.

One thing I always appreciated about D&D, even when I didn't like D&D, was that it was more or less setting-free, a template I could use on my own ideas.  Having come around to enjoying 3.x, I have to say that I don't much care for the inclusion of the various deities in the PHB, nor the integral role they play with regard to some of the entries in the MM.  Continuing this integrated role into the 4th edition just mucks with the general utility of D&D as a rules kit.

!i!

I'd much rather have them in the PHB where I can ignore them than in another book I have to buy if I want them.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'd much rather have them in the PHB where I can ignore them than in another book I have to buy if I want them.

Well, I'd rather have monsters in the PHB the basic rules, too, instead of having to buy multiple books.

!i!

[Edit:  And as an afterthought, when the stock pantheon is included in the PHB, this creates an expectation among the various players that these deities are going to be available for play by default.  As GM, you may wish to ignore them yourself, but to one of your players this may be roughly equivalent to prohibiting the monk class or paladins.]

Quote from: James McMurrayThen you'd get complaints from people like me who don't have time to create pantheons from scratch.

How many games have you ran where you actually, truly, needed to create an entire pantheon (as opposed to creating a single entity as needed)?

If somebody has a cleric, then you need one god for them.  That's easy enough, just ask the player what kind of god they want to worship and go from there (or alternately, what kind of spells / weapons they want to use).  If you need an evil god, it's even easier - every evil god is more or less the same.  After that, just randomly make up names/roles as needed.

It's not like real life pantheons were these uniform groups where every god had a specific purpose and was inter-related.  Most of the time, gods were added and dropped over the years, many had over-lapping or changing roles, not everyone acknowledged all the gods of the pantheon - many were purely regional, some were related in stories while others were not, the mythological stories of the gods varied widely, etc.  Really, randomly creating the gods as you go is probably the much more realistic way of playing in the religious mindset of an ancient pantheon.

Quote from: jgantsHow many games have you ran where you actually, truly, needed to create an entire pantheon (as opposed to creating a single entity as needed)?

If somebody has a cleric, then you need one god for them.  That's easy enough, just ask the player what kind of god they want to worship and go from there (or alternately, what kind of spells / weapons they want to use).  If you need an evil god, it's even easier - every evil god is more or less the same.  After that, just randomly make up names/roles as needed.
.

Well, thats fine and dandy for the player of the cleric if the only god you actually made up is his, but that sort of limits the role of worship and divine powers if the setting only has that one god.

So, as a GM I can either buy a setting with gods, buy a PHB with generic gods, or make up my own.   While I don't mind a bit of setting creation, I'd rather not waste my skull sweat on divine beings that don't interest me... but MIGHT interest my players.

So: Yeah, I like having the option to ignore more than I like being forced to make up 'johnny on the spot'... and making up 'just the one I need right now' leads to slapadash work. Shoddy.

Quote from: jgantsHow many games have you ran where you actually, truly, needed to create an entire pantheon (as opposed to creating a single entity as needed)?

Religion and cosmology played a pretty big role in the D&D 3.5 campaign that I recently ran, not only because the main menace in the settle was an infernal threat but because the party contained a paladin and a druid (and, ultimately, a cleric).  Lots of theology came up, including the different perspectives within the main church and the contrast with the druid's perspective.  Some of what I developed was never used, but what was used helped add depth to the religious elements of the setting.  None of the religions used were stock fantasy pantheons, though.

I think as long as there aren't a bunch of prestige classes, monsters, etc. that are hinged on those specific gods we're cool.

It would only really become a hindrance to homebrewing when a bunch of character options get dismantled as a consequence of scrapping the gods.

Outside of that? I'm happier with something I can ignore than I am with... well.. nothing.

Quote from: SpikeWell, thats fine and dandy for the player of the cleric if the only god you actually made up is his, but that sort of limits the role of worship and divine powers if the setting only has that one god.

So, as a GM I can either buy a setting with gods, buy a PHB with generic gods, or make up my own.   While I don't mind a bit of setting creation, I'd rather not waste my skull sweat on divine beings that don't interest me... but MIGHT interest my players.

So: Yeah, I like having the option to ignore more than I like being forced to make up 'johnny on the spot'... and making up 'just the one I need right now' leads to slapadash work. Shoddy.

Well, I guess its a case of my mileage varying.

I have yet to encounter a single player who gave one lick about who the gods in a setting are.  Even players playing clerics always cared less beyond "what weapons/spells can I get?" - unless the player was strongly religious, and then the setting basically became monotheistic so they wouldn't feel sinful by playing.