Quote from: DrewD&D still shows it's wargaming roots, it's just that the emphasis has shifted from the skirmish level to single character play.

That's what I was getting getting at (the shift from skirmish to single character).

There's no doubt in my mind AT ALL about its wargame roots - D&D is a tactical combat game with Role Playing elements.  Where its definition of "role" means battlefield role and not story role.

Quote from: James J SkachCombat monkeys! :eek:

It's a joke people.

Could it be that it was supposed to be the Magic User who did a whole bunch of stuff outside the combat that couldn't be done by fighters or thieves? So in this way there was balance in the force....

But did they? I mean, there was no rules in earlier editions of D&D for magic-users to research stuff and create magic items - at least not until they were quite high level.

For my part I houseruled that given access to a library, magic-users were automatically sages. But that was never in the rules set.

Quote from: HaffrungBut did they? I mean, there was no rules in earlier editions of D&D for magic-users to research stuff and create magic items - at least not until they were quite high level.

Not correct.  Holmes Basic allowed scroll creation from level 1.  Moldvay Basic/Cook Expert allowed spell research from level 1.

Quote from: James J SkachBy rules, a LG table can't have more than 6 players (nor less than 4). so you're look at 4-5-6 tables if 20 people show up.

I had no idea.  I thought we'd have nice big tables and it'd be a bit old school.  Oh well, I'm still looking forward to it.

Quote from: architect.zeroParties are asumed to be much larger, in the 6-8 character range at least.

Yes, but in our case the large parties weren't a function so much of a large playing group, but of everyone wanting to work two PCs. And everyone wanted to work two PCs because spell-casters were so weak at low levels. We spent most of our gaming in the levels 1-4 range, so someone who played only a magic-user didn't get to do much. Typically, every player would have one fighter type character and one support character.

The presumed makeup of PC parties changed when D&D became more PC and story focussed with 2E. Then with 3E, players became even more fixated on the awesomeness of their PC, its array of powers, and heroic destiny. I doubt many players weaned on 3E are accustomed to running more than one PC at a time. Which leads to the desire to make each class fun to play at every level.

Personally, I have no problem with making magic-users more powerful at low levels. It would certainly make those classes more attractive to my group, where PC death and very slow level progression is the norm.

Quote from: jrientsNot correct.  Holmes Basic allowed scroll creation from level 1.  Moldvay Basic/Cook Expert allowed spell research from level 1.

I stand corrected. But did magic-users typically do a lot of supplementary stuff besides sling spells until they were gone, then throw darts? Not in the games I saw.

I think they got rid of it in 2nd edition*, so it's an understandable mistake if you started on that.

*Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote from: HaffrungYes, but in our case the large parties weren't a function so much of a large playing group, but of everyone wanting to work two PCs. And everyone wanted to work two PCs because spell-casters were so weak at low levels. We spent most of our gaming in the levels 1-4 range, so someone who played only a magic-user didn't get to do much. Typically, every player would have one fighter type character and one support character.

I think you missed a part of my original post

Quote from: architect.zero...It didn't matter so much to a player if their 1st level wizard shot his wad last encounter, his other 1st level wizard still has flaming hands at the ready.

I was definitely implying the multiple characters per player angle because I can remember playing that way may many years ago.

Quote from: HaffrungI stand corrected. But did magic-users typically do a lot of supplementary stuff besides sling spells until they were gone, then throw darts? Not in the games I saw.

They were the ones who knew where the great arch-magus Dunderhead, who fashioned the Mystic Dingus of Centerearth, could be found.  They also could identify beneficial herbs in the wild for healing.  Etc.  Magic-users in my games were always founts of useful knowledge like that.

Quote from: KenHRThey were the ones who knew where the great arch-magus Dunderhead, who fashioned the Mystic Dingus of Centerearth, could be found.  They also could identify beneficial herbs in the wild for healing.  Etc.  Magic-users in my games were always founts of useful knowledge like that.

Exactly the way I remember it in the Basic and early 1ed days.  Now perhaps that was just the way we played and not supported by the rules, per se.  Going to make dig out one of three 1ed players handbooks, aren't you...

Quote from: James J SkachExactly the way I remember it in the Basic and early 1ed days.  Now perhaps that was just the way we played and not supported by the rules, per se.  Going to make dig out one of three 1ed players handbooks, aren't you...

Going from my 1st ed knowledge, it wasn't supported by the rules back then. If your party had a Bard you might be able to find out useful hints from their Legend Lore ability, but otherwise you were expected to go pay a sage for information - or learn and cast the Legend Lore spell.

Quote from: WarthurGoing from my 1st ed knowledge, it wasn't supported by the rules back then. If your party had a Bard you might be able to find out useful hints from their Legend Lore ability, but otherwise you were expected to go pay a sage for information - or learn and cast the Legend Lore spell.

The big info, yes, but trivia, rumors, things that came in handy in a snap: that was your m-u talkin'.

Quote from: KenHRThe big info, yes, but trivia, rumors, things that came in handy in a snap: that was your m-u talkin'.

And usually done with the feared and loathed GM fiat...IIRC...

Fighter: Do I know the Legend of Sir Dufus?
GM: No, at best you know some rumors to scare children...
Magic User: Do I?
GM: Sure, every person of your intelligence knows that Sir Dufus lived some 400 years ago and...

Quote from: James J SkachAnd usually done with the feared and loathed GM fiat...IIRC...

Fighter: Do I know the Legend of Sir Dufus?
GM: No, at best you know some rumors to scare children...
Magic User: Do I?
GM: Sure, every person of your intelligence knows that Sir Dufus lived some 400 years ago and...

Exactly.  And there was nothing wrong with playing it that way!

Quote from: KenHRExactly.  And there was nothing wrong with playing it that way!

I had serious problems with it.