Quote from: walkerpFalse.  I have made a ton of effort and it's paid off.  But I was hating during that time.  I still have a little hate for the ning-heads who stand in front of the vast shelves of D20 books, all looking more or less the same and completely ignoring the equally vast rows of non-D20 rpg's to the right (our LGS has an excellent stock), the kind of people who think that D20 Modern is a radical departure from the norm (overheard at my LGS:  "Glenn would never go for it.").  

See this is what I don't get. So what if some folks (gamers) are pretty set in their taste. So what if they ignore the non-d20 games out there. So what if they don't want to try new things. At the end of the day it's not the system (whoa did I just say this ) it's the people....specifically the folks you are gaming with.

I mean let's take this whole thread. When you think of it, it's a pretty bullshit thread. The vast majority of gamers like d20. The folks who don't are divided into those who are disinterested in the system for various reasons and those(a very tiny minority) who actively hate the game. So, there's really no vast movement out to destroy the hobby.

But when you talk about this hobby on a forum where a diverse range of games are played, d20 may be ignored because some don't use the system or the very vocal haters start spewing shit. But if you really wanted to talk about D&D and d20 only, you should go to a forum, which only or mostly caters to the fans of this system. So, yeah I think the problem is a bit overblown....purposely I suspect.

The last two paras really have nothing to do with you walkerp, but I just needed to rant a little.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Haffrung

Holy lack of perspective.

Excuse me?  Come on, dude.  I'm obviously not saying that these kinds of resentments are anything near the scale of what goes on in political and religious conflicts where people die.  But the mentality is similar.  You killed my father, now I'm going to kill yours.  And the cycle goes on.  You hate my game, and I'm going to hate yours.  And the cycle goes on.  That's all I'm saying.  I'm surprised and disappointed that you couldn't read into that last line a bit more generously.  As if I would ever compare the impact of war on someone's life to the impact of having your game dissed.  Sorry to overreact, but that kind of reading really pisses me off.

Quote from: HaffrungBut don't shit on the people who are happy enough with what they know, because you likely have aspects of your own life where you don't stick your neck out too far from your shell. It's only because you care about gaming much, much more than most people that you're frustrated at their apathy.

Where did I say I was shitting on people who are happy enough with what they know?  I shit on people who consider what they know to be the only valid and therefore superior form of gaming, an attitude that I have had to put up with a lot (and something I have done a lot of positive work towards changing).  I shit on "Glenn" the fascist GM who decides what his group plays and would never go for D20 Modern (WotC's Taco Bell, as I like to call it) because it's not high fantasy let alone anything not D20.

And I do stick my neck out and try new things.  Or if I know they won't interest me, I acknowledge their validity and other people's interest.

Quote from: David RSee this is what I don't get. So what if some folks (gamers) are pretty set in their taste. So what if they ignore the non-d20 games out there. So what if they don't want to try new things. At the end of the day it's not the system (whoa did I just say this ) it's the people....specifically the folks you are gaming with.

Well, I think the domination of the hobby by a single system (and as I already said, this is changing, so as you said, David R this discussion is kind of moot) is bad for the hobby and the industry.  It leads to things like WotC not supporting any conventions and putting all their money into DDXP so that local cons have no real tools to attract the majority of gamers to their cons, which are good for everybody.  If WotC didn't have such a massive market share, they couldn't pull monopolistic bullshit like that. It leads to most game stores having employees (and owners) who know nothing about any RPGs other than D20.  It leads to ghettoization of the hobby (such as our local RPGA branch who fought tooth and nail to have their games run in a separate room from the other tabletop rpg's and then brought not that many people in who spent most of the time sitting around eating snacks and not even gaming that much).

I have serious problems with these manifestations of a monopolized market, plus I've had my own personal frustrations so that does lead to some "hating".  It's not the system itself (though I am no fan) nor the majority of its players (oblivious or not) but it's unbalanced impact on the hobby overall.

Quote from: walkerpI have serious problems with these manifestations of a monopolized market, plus I've had my own personal frustrations so that does lead to some "hating".  It's not the system itself (though I am no fan) nor the majority of its players (oblivious or not) but it's unbalanced impact on the hobby overall.

Okay, but this about the Business rather than the game/system, right? I think walkerp - and I may be missreading you - you sometimes conflate the two.

For the record, I do understand your concerns about the Business aspect of a single game dominating the hobby. However dodgy business practises and fans who genuinely like the system and who are the majority - the reality - are two separate issues. Three if you count online discourse.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David ROkay, but this about the Business rather than the game/system, right? I think walkerp - and I may be missreading you - you sometimes conflate the two.

Lots of people do this online. A current discussion I am having elsewhere is driving this home.

CS: This is why 4e bothers me...
PosterWithChipOnShoulder: Wot? Are you saying wizards should ignore market research?!!!111eleven!!!1
CS: What?

Quote from: David ROkay, but this about the Business rather than the game/system, right? I think walkerp - and I may be missreading you - you sometimes conflate the two.

In my head, I don't.  But it may come out conflated in my rhetoric.  I'm not sure.  I really don't like the D20 system (not a fan of the restrictive nature of classes and that imagination-less nature of feat chains, among other things) but I would probably play in a one-shot with most of the D20 fans here rather than watch tv.  And as I said in my first post, I recognize that most D20 fans online have tried other systems or at least recognize the diversity out there in the hobby.

And I do take some satisfaction in seeing how a lot of people who jumped down my throat when I first came here and explicitly stated how I didn't like D20 are now very critical of 4e for extensions of exactly the same criticisms I already had for 3.5.

Quote from: AlnagMaybe my question is naive. Maybe the answer is obvious. But I have strange feeling in guts recently and I want to talk about it. The question is this. Why people hate D&D?

Because a lot of people want it to be everything in gaming, and that just can't be.

D&D is great at what it does but is still a focused design.

generality to follow: people suck.  

personally, I don't hate D&D.  I have played it.  It's not my cup of tea.  I respect that it's by far and away the most popular RPG.  It just doesn't suit my playstyle.