Quote from: Seanchai;367678Opinions do come from somewhere, but I'm not sure we're all on the same page about what's an opinion and what's not. Moreover, as you know, some opinions can be flat out wrong.

But that aside, we don't really share and compare viewpoints much, particularly when it comes to 4e.

My irony meter broke again.

Quote from: Sigmund;367491So what we are saying is our tastes don't mesh well with their choices.

You keep saying you understand the subjective nature of your argument, but then keep pointing to out objective reasons why your dislike is justified. In this case, it's someone else's fault you don't like 4e...

Seanchai

Quote from: jgants;367477I just don't see them as a barrier to immersion.

As I said upthread, I don't think "immersion" is terribly meaningful. Not only does it seem to mean different things to different folks, but what "breaks immersion" seems to be...highly variable.

Seanchai

Quote from: Imperator;367646One of the reasons I find contemptuous things like edition wars is because they usualy involve people fighting over concepts and rules thatwer fucked up anyway from the start.

I agree, but there's often a high degree of revisionism that accompanies edition wars.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;367699You keep saying you understand the subjective nature of your argument, but then keep pointing to out objective reasons why your dislike is justified. In this case, it's someone else's fault you don't like 4e...

Seanchai

Bullshit.  Utter bullshit.  

Unless someone here is responsible for the design of 4e, then yes, in fact, the reason for the dislike is someone else's choices in game design.  Deal with it.

Bob: "I don't like this chili con carne. It's too sweet."
Jim: "It's a matter of taste! It's not the cook's fault if it's sweet. It's your fault you don't like sweet stuff!"
Bob: "I do like sweet enough, thank you very much. This chili's just too sweet. Even your friends say so on that thread of cookingchili.com, and the cook of this chili here even posted on there asking for people's feedback on how to make his chili less sweet for them."
Jim: "It's not too sweet! It's your fault to you alone if you don't like sweet stuff!"
Bob: "..."

Quote from: jeff37923;367639If anyone cares to notice, you and Seanchai are the only 4E Zealots whose feet I hold to the fire over their obnoxious behavior. I don't give jgants or Thanlis any shit over liking 4E, then again they also don't act like infantile insufferable twats about liking 4E either. Maybe you should try to behave like they do.

Aw, you do sometimes. I feel so left out now!

But in all seriousness -- the reason I don't find this forum a very interesting place to discuss D&D is because the shit-giving is highly unidirectional. If you're criticizing 4e, you can be as infantile and insufferable as you want. There's a huge double standard, and the inevitable result is that reasonable conversation is driven out.

Quote from: Thanlis;367710If you're criticizing 4e, you can be as infantile and insufferable as you want. There's a huge double standard, and the inevitable result is that reasonable conversation is driven out.

Wait, what?  Seriously?  You think Seanchai, Abyssal Maw and Shazbot - all three of whom have admitted they are only here to troll - are the reasonable ones?

Quote from: StormBringer;367718Wait, what?  Seriously?  You think Seanchai, Abyssal Maw and Shazbot - all three of whom have admitted they are only here to troll - are the reasonable ones?

OK. This DEFINITELY deserves a LOLCake. Here, have one:



Ah shit. Too infantile?

Quote from: Benoist;367720OK. This DEFINITELY deserves a LOLCake. Here, have one:

This, for example, is Benoist giving Stormbringer a pass. What he could have said, in his self-assumed role as village elder, is this:

"Hey, Stormbringer, that's not what Thanlis said. He said there were infantile and insufferable people criticizing 4e; he didn't say that there weren't infantile and insufferable people defending 4e."

But that's not how Benoist rolls.

Quote from: Stormy

Quote from: Originally Posted by ThanlisIf you're criticizing 4e, you can be as infantile and insufferable as you want. There's a huge double standard, and the inevitable result is that reasonable conversation is driven out.

Wait, what? Seriously? You think Seanchai, Abyssal Maw and Shazbot - all three of whom have admitted they are only here to troll - are the reasonable ones?

Well, just because some level of a double standard might have snuck in does not make Seanchai, AM, and Shaz reasonable.  Please.

Thanlis, to be a little less humorous, I do agree that due to some level of what seems to be very reasonable reponses to certain posters, sometimes intelligent and well meant posters and reasonable posts get hit by indiscriminate return fire.

Quote from: SeanchaiAs I said upthread, I don't think "immersion" is terribly meaningful. Not only does it seem to mean different things to different folks, but what "breaks immersion" seems to be...highly variable.

You have managed a quote that I complete disagree with half and agree with the rest.  Congratulations!
There is not much in a a 'roleplaying' situation that is more important than immersion.  And it is a very basic concept for a roleplaying game, one that should be understood by everyone playing.  I'll agree that there is some 5-10% of the definition that may be debateable, but as to different meanings for different people...maybe for drowning victims, but not for roleplayers.
However, the thresholds and causes of breaking immersion, I have to totally agree can be really different for different people.  So when we argue about a rule or subset of rules 'breaking immersion', we have to be very careful.

Quote from: Thanlis;367723This, for example, is Benoist giving Stormbringer a pass. What he could have said, in his self-assumed role as village elder, is this:

"Hey, Stormbringer, that's not what Thanlis said. He said there were infantile and insufferable people criticizing 4e; he didn't say that there weren't infantile and insufferable people defending 4e."

Which is also true, by the way.

Quote from: Thanlis;367723But that's not how Benoist rolls.

Depends on the mood of the moment. You're deciding to point the finger and call some nameless people who disagree with you infantile and insufferable, while not mentioning that other people you may agree with are disinginuous, dishonest, and contemptuous.
I'm deciding to have a lolcake.

How about the thread title, hmm?

Quote from: Windjammer;367640In the spirit of this post... please guys, if you have something constructive to say about the issues do so. If not, consider spending your efforts on something you can post here to give the rest of us something we can positively implement at our gaming tables.

Forgot myself again. I apologize, WJ.

Quote from: One Horse Town;367729How about the thread title, hmm?

You're right as usual, Dan.  I suggest you change it immediately to something more appropriate.

!i!