Quote from: Benoist;367488I don't think that's ever going to happen, to be honest.

Oh wait for the 5E promo 'ZE GAME REMAINZ THE ZAME' video. I wager that in place of "I grapple the troll!! cue eye rolling" we'll get comparably memorable scenes to ridicule 'the past edition'. Good candidates  here are: le combat grind and the shoddy utterly craptastic skill challenge system.

Guess who'll be the first posters on this board to jump ship then and choin the chorus of people shouting down 4E...

Quote from: Seanchai;367448Yes, it's a combination of both your tastes and how your tastes interact with the system. Doesn't have anything to do with the system as a discrete entity.

Seanchai

You are right. It has to do with the system as a collection of choices in genre, mechanics, and artwork assembled by a team of designers. So what we are saying is our tastes don't mesh well with their choices.

Quote from: Windjammer;367487It has design issues, and whether we play or keep playing it or not, let's discuss the stuff we like and would port to our own game of choice (even if it's 4E itself) and let's discuss stuff we like to kick out because it's just badly designed. Honestly.

Ok, so start off a constructive 4e thread, what you like that you can port (Pundit already did something that one I think, and rituals was high on the list), and/or what you want to change if you could.  Let's stop talking about whether 4e should even exist and get down to making it work.  Based on some of the posts around here, it seems like a lot of the people who have problems with 4e want to like it.

Quote from: Seanchai;367451People aren't rational actors. They can love ice cream, love marshmallows, love chocolate, and love nuts, but hate rocky road ice cream. It makes no sense, but that's people.

I'm with you. When people have no problems with, for example, HP, but say 4e's marking mechanics "break immersion," "is dissociative," or whatever buzz words they'd like to use, I go, "Bwuuh?"

But...shrug.

What irritates me is the incessant, almost desperate need for people who don't like 4e to back up their subjective opinion with an objective root cause. It's like the Christians who set out to destroy science so that they can somehow prove that their faith is correct.

Seanchai

I'm sorry you and jgants don't get it. It's really not that complicated but I guess somehow it's still beyond ya'all. There's plenty of us who do get it however.

What irritates me is the constant need for people to defend their opinions about 4e even when they're not being attacked.

Quote from: Seanchai;367456I'm not sure what they means.

Seanchai

Look it up.

Quote from: LordVreeg;367457N
Sigmund, I know a lot of folks houserule the social stuff, and a lot of GMs and a lot of games do fantastically with it that way.   I find these skills and their inclusion really adds a lot in a concrete fashion to a character.  One of my online guy's character is studying oeneology (LITERALLY) but we have over 300 skills.  And having a system and framework helps some people.

I got ya brother. I only express my personal view on that stuff, but I totally get that things like that can also influence how some folks can form an opinion of a game. Just kinda side-handing it out there that what we do is just tack the skills back on... even when my former gaming group first made the switch to 4e we kept getting crafting, perform, etc. if it fit the character.

Quote from: CRKrueger;367492Ok, so start off a constructive 4e thread

You're so funny. Look, what you're saying is happening already. Except that threads aren't organized by 'Here's what's to like about 4E' and 'Here's what's to dislike and improve on in 4E', but by topics. I know, it's a bit hard to wrap one's head around this, sort of like a gestalt shift. Really, it's not us versus them, 4E versus the world, or any other thing that dominates threads even like the current one, though some would have you believe this. Any thread, no matter how critical about 4E, will already contain tons of stuff on how to fix perceived problems. Example: the threads on how to fix official 4E modules, on magic items in 4E.

And if all you really want is neat collations of houserules, they are all there on the 'net. Here's a good one by Skach's DM. Here are my own. And that's before we even get to the topic of how we personally run 4E, because that's frankly not the stuff I need to write down to recall. I'm just not that senile... yet.

Quote from: Windjammer;367490Oh wait for the 5E promo 'ZE GAME REMAINZ THE ZAME' video. I wager that in place of "I grapple the troll!! cue eye rolling" we'll get comparably memorable scenes to ridicule 'the past edition'. Good candidates  here are: le combat grind and the shoddy utterly craptastic skill challenge system.

Guess who'll be the first posters on this board to jump ship then and choin the chorus of people shouting down 4E...

Uhm. I'm not sure you guys realize that games aren't political parties, but I'm not even particularly loyal to any political party.

And if anyone needs any help with 3rd edition (or 3.5) I'm happy to help. I ran it weekly for the entire time it was in print.

EDIT: But I'm not going to continue playing a game if I find another one I like better. I mean, geez.."jump ship"? Isn't free will involved in this somewhere?

Quote from: Windjammer;367497And if all you really want is neat collations of houserules (...) Here are my own.

Cf:

Dungeon Mastering Style
“The DM gets to decide how the rules work, which rules to use, and how strictly to adhere to them.”
Also, debates as to what the rules are and how to interpret them are to be left for after the session.

When your character dies
It happens. Especially in this campaign, where you’ll constantly face foes several levels above you
(that’s right, screw balanced encounters – we’re talking about a game where survival constitutes
success). (...)

= I would play in that game.

Quote from: Benoist;367515Dungeon Mastering Style
"The DM gets to decide how the rules work, which rules to use, and how strictly to adhere to them."
Also, debates as to what the rules are and how to interpret them are to be left for after the session.

When your character dies
It happens. Especially in this campaign, where you'll constantly face foes several levels above you . . .

As it should be.

Quote from: Benoist;367515(that's right, screw balanced encounters – we're talking about a game where survival constitutes
success). (...)

It's certainly a leading indicator.

Quote from: Benoist;367515I would play in that game.

So would I.

As long as it's not fantasy.

Quote from: The Shaman;367517As long as it's not fantasy.

Honestly, so long as I'm playing with people I appreciate, have fun in a make-believe that makes some sort of sense, with a half-decent DM, I'll overlook pretty much any mechanical shit happening in the game.

Really, I'm not as difficult as my posts might lead people to believe. Cheetoist all the way. People. Snacks. Setting. System. In that order.

Quote from: Benoist;367515Cf:

Dungeon Mastering Style
"The DM gets to decide how the rules work, which rules to use, and how strictly to adhere to them."
Also, debates as to what the rules are and how to interpret them are to be left for after the session.

When your character dies
It happens. Especially in this campaign, where you'll constantly face foes several levels above you
(that's right, screw balanced encounters – we're talking about a game where survival constitutes
success). (...)

= I would play in that game.

And this is why we get along so well...

I may go rules heavy, skill based, but this is the shit I am totally on board with.

Quote from: Benoist;367515Cf:

Dungeon Mastering Style
"The DM gets to decide how the rules work, which rules to use, and how strictly to adhere to them."
Also, debates as to what the rules are and how to interpret them are to be left for after the session.

When your character dies
It happens. Especially in this campaign, where you'll constantly face foes several levels above you
(that's right, screw balanced encounters – we're talking about a game where survival constitutes
success). (...)

= I would play in that game.

Sign me up.

Quote from: Windjammer;367497And if all you really want is neat collations of houserules, they are all there on the 'net. Here's a good one by Skach's DM. Here are my own. And that's before we even get to the topic of how we personally run 4E, because that's frankly not the stuff I need to write down to recall. I'm just not that senile... yet.

In that vein, here's the wiki for my Drow campaign:

http://house-of-exile.wikidot.com

Quote from: LordVreeg;367525And this is why we get along so well...

I may go rules heavy, skill based, but this is the shit I am totally on board with.

Totally. Speaking of rules light/heavy, for me, it's whatever does the campaign's job best, and it'll vary with tastes, preferences, inclinations of the moment around the table. I'm not de facto repulsed by heavy game systems. I loved RoleMaster back when it was considered "unplayable" (sic; LOL). Heck. I'd even try to GM/play some Mythus/Dangerous Journeys to see how that goes!

Granted, I must be nuts on this one!

Also, in Windjammer's houserules document, I love the way it points out how, if you die (just after the part I quoted, at the end of the doc), you recreate a character at level 8, choose the class, but you ROLL the race and background. That's awesome.