Quote from: LordVreeg;367406Something interesting happenned in this thread a ltitle while ago.   There has been a bit of a shift from 'rules that support role-playing' to 'rules that support immersion', and though the two are very close, not quite the same.
You made the very good point earlier that you can roleplay in combat...later your examples (and Peregrins) were both excellent.  

I guess I still go back (and this is me, all on me) to the fact that when I created my ruleset, I added a ton of non-combat skills in, because while I agree that you can roleplay in combat, that is not where the meat of roleplaying is found.  
Interacting with the enviroment and NPCs in non violent situations is.  We spoke (or wrote earlier about rewards for solving encounters in a non combat fashion.  Are thereany of the feats you mention for aiding these alternate resolutions?

More important to me (and again, this is me), roleplaying is mainly what happens before combat, after combat, and especially dealing with the ramifications and rewards of an encounter.  I like it when my adventurers use combat or adventures as a means to an end...I dislike it when combat is that end.

I guess I don't talk much about this because any "roleplaying rules", which often seem to be just skills and other similar bits that aren't directly related to combat, are usually fairly simple to houserule or tack back on from an older edition or even another game, so their inclusion or lack of inclusion hasn't been much of a stumbling-block for me personally. I can see how it might be for some folks though I suppose.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;367414It's probably unfair of me, but I tend to lay that responsibility back on the people who have the misconception in the first place.

To an extent, it is unfair of you, because some responsibility for the misconception does stem from the choice of wording and presentation of the concepts by the authors/designers, as well as the folks reading/using the rules. Of course, it's always much easier to point these things out in hindsight and it's also a case of being overly picky if, when the fact that the mechanics in question can in fact be used outside of combat, one still insists on being critical of it using the "it's only meant for combat" criteria.

Quote from: Sigmund;367420Some of us really do run into difficulties with the level of rules interaction and particular rules abstractions designed into 4e, so I keep hoping to read something that helps me past this stumbling-block for me because the fact remains DnD is going to be the easiest game to find players for, and I really do like RPGing.

I think personal preference is inviolate. You like what you like! You don't need a reason. You don't need an excuse to dislike anything either. Think of it like candy. Some people can't stand licorice. Do they need an excuse? No they do not.

(I tried to make this point about a million times last year, but to no avail).

And I certainly don't want to tell you not to like what you like (or dislike it either!). The only time I have to say something is when someone makes a boneheaded statement like "you can't roleplay in 4th edition" or "this edition is only about combat..".

Those are simply factually wrong statements.. and I can show how they are wrong.  

But should everyone like how it works or whatever? No, not at all.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;367418The one corner case is this: If you were playing 3.5 and then 4th came out, and the rest of the gaming group jumped ship to play 4th, well.. then you have a decision to make. But I really think that a) there's enough people and interest out there to play whatever game you like. b) Tele-location tools and social networking is more advanced than it is have ever been in our lifetimes- which means if you can only find one guy that plays but he lives in some 3rd world country like Uruguay (heh) you can still game, and c) flexibility isn't the worst thing in the world. As long as you have friends and a gaming group, it probably won't kill you. Heck, I even played Gurps and Basic Roleplay a couple of times. I even playtested a FUDGE adventure! Somehow I lived.

This is actually exactly what happened to me. The choice I made was to stop gaming for awhile. This choice was also influenced by the fact that I have since gotten laid-off from my job, divorced from my now ex-wife, had 3 knee surgeries and been diagnosed with arthritis in both knees, relocated twice, been reunited with my birth mother and 2 older birth sisters after having been adopted at the age of 4 months and living my life up until the last year not knowing even who they were, and now having a great new girlfriend, a great new job, and my dream car and having lost over 40 pounds so far (most of which I gained during my recovery from surgery anyway), so now I'm looking to get back into gaming and developing a new friends and hopefully joining a new group, so this discussion really is important to me in deciding which way I want to go with this and I'm grateful to ya'all for keeping it civil and on-topic for the most part. It's been a hell of a year.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;367425I think personal preference is inviolate. You like what you like! You don't need a reason. You don't need an excuse to dislike anything either. Think of it like candy. Some people can't stand licorice. Do they need an excuse? No they do not.

(I tried to make this point about a million times last year, but to no avail).

And I certainly don't want to tell you not to like what you like (or dislike it either!). The only time I have to say something is when someone makes a boneheaded statement like "you can't roleplay in 4th edition" or "this edition is only about combat..".

Those are simply factually wrong statements.. and I can show how they are wrong.  

But should everyone like how it works or whatever? No, not at all.

I don't disagree with you here. My main point for participating in this thread is to show how 4e actually does differ from OD&D and other games for the purposes of exploring these differences and perhaps coming to terms with them enough to get back into playing the game.

Quote from: Sigmund;367427This is actually exactly what happened to me. The choice I made was to stop gaming for awhile. This choice was also influenced by the fact that I have since gotten laid-off from my job, divorced from my now ex-wife, had 3 knee surgeries and been diagnosed with arthritis in both knees, relocated twice, been reunited with my birth mother and 2 older birth sisters after having been adopted at the age of 4 months and living my life up until the last year not knowing even who they were, and now having a great new girlfriend, a great new job, and my dream car and having lost over 40 pounds so far (most of which I gained during my recovery from surgery anyway), so now I'm looking to get back into gaming and developing a new friends and hopefully joining a new group, so this discussion really is important to me in deciding which way I want to go with this and I'm grateful to ya'all for keeping it civil and on-topic for the most part. It's been a hell of a year.

Aside from the surgeries (well I just had wisdom teeth removed) and the adoption stuff, we have incredibly parallel lives.

Here's my advice:

Nobody ever wants to be a leader in gaming. Because.. it's work. But that also means everyone is waiting for someone to announce a game.

So you (or anyone else reading this) could easily have a brand new gaming group- just announce it, and utilize the social networks in your area. Start a meetup group- find the local shop, announce the game of your choice. If you can't  stand to DM or GM, this will be a bit harder, but it's not too tough.

Since you only live 30 minutes away, I recommend you check out the Haven in Frederick: http://www.historichaven.com/haventour.html

It's a private gaming "lounge" with a lot of SCA stuff sort of mixed in. Nice people...!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;367433Aside from the surgeries (well I just had wisdom teeth removed) and the adoption stuff, we have incredibly parallel lives.

Here's my advice:

Nobody ever wants to be a leader in gaming. Because.. it's work. But that also means everyone is waiting for someone to announce a game.

So you (or anyone else reading this) could easily have a brand new gaming group- just announce it, and utilize the social networks in your area. Start a meetup group- find the local shop, announce the game of your choice. If you can't  stand to DM or GM, this will be a bit harder, but it's not too tough.

Since you only live 30 minutes away, I recommend you check out the Haven in Frederick: http://www.historichaven.com/haventour.html

It's a private gaming "lounge" with a lot of SCA stuff sort of mixed in. Nice people...!

I'll definitely check it out. Otherwise, I have considered starting a group myself, but I really do prefer to play most of the time not DM, and I really don't have all that much space to set aside for RPGing where I'm living at the moment. The job was the priority, but now I'll be poking around for what I'd like to do in regards to RPGing.

Quote from: CRKrueger;367211So while you are right in a sense when you say "It's you.", we are also right when we say "It's the game."

No. You can say it again. You can frame it differently. You're still wrong. "The game" or elements thereof might be why you hold the opinion that you do, but being able to point to the cause of your dissatisfaction doesn't make it objectively bad or problematic. It doesn't make it source a problem for anyone but you.

Seanchai

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;367418The one corner case is this: If you were playing 3.5 and then 4th came out, and the rest of the gaming group jumped ship to play 4th, well.. then you have a decision to make.

This is exactly what happened my case.  I've spoken about this before, but my group literally swore off all other game systems and tossed out all old gaming books and materials.  I was definitely was faced with a decision.  Had this group been some random people that had come together to game, then I probably would have walked away from the group.  However, this group is not only my gaming buddies, but they are my life long friends as well.  There was more at stake than just walking away from a game system that doesn't suit my tastes well.  In the end, I made the decision to continue to play with them even though we are only using the 4e D&D rules system.

Quote from: Thanlis;367323I can't say this any more plainly: you have no reason to doubt that I immerse as deeply as you do except that I'm playing a game you don't like.

I'm in the same boat. I think the folks here would be shocked if they ever sat down at my table.

Seanchai

Quote from: RandallS;367346It is a combination of BOTH.

Yes, it's a combination of both your tastes and how your tastes interact with the system. Doesn't have anything to do with the system as a discrete entity.

Seanchai

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;3673681 minute rounds. These equal a lot of parrying, thrusting, loss of luck, general fatigue, etc. I get that.

But then you fire an arrow. ONE arrow. One arrow is marked off. (Or two if you happen to use the rate of fire rules). In Basic D&D, you don't get rate of fire. You just get the one arrow. That also takes a whole minute.

You have clearly never so much as picked up a bow before, nor ever gotten into a physical altercation.

Quote from: Sigmund;367424To an extent, it is unfair of you, because some responsibility for the misconception does stem from the choice of wording and presentation of the concepts by the authors/designers, as well as the folks reading/using the rules. Of course, it's always much easier to point these things out in hindsight and it's also a case of being overly picky if, when the fact that the mechanics in question can in fact be used outside of combat, one still insists on being critical of it using the "it's only meant for combat" criteria.

It falls back on the old self-affirming argument, "If you can fix it, it isn't broken!"

Quote from: jgants;367352Maybe I'm crazy, but I just don't get why 4e is so hard to immerse in.

People aren't rational actors. They can love ice cream, love marshmallows, love chocolate, and love nuts, but hate rocky road ice cream. It makes no sense, but that's people.

I'm with you. When people have no problems with, for example, HP, but say 4e's marking mechanics "break immersion," "is dissociative," or whatever buzz words they'd like to use, I go, "Bwuuh?"

But...shrug.

What irritates me is the incessant, almost desperate need for people who don't like 4e to back up their subjective opinion with an objective root cause. It's like the Christians who set out to destroy science so that they can somehow prove that their faith is correct.

Seanchai

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;367425I think personal preference is inviolate. You like what you like! You don't need a reason. You don't need an excuse to dislike anything either. Think of it like candy. Some people can't stand licorice. Do they need an excuse? No they do not.

But people need vast amounts of play experience to state a dislike for 4e.

Quote(I tried to make this point about a million times last year, but to no avail).

Was this hidden in the bitchfests about irrelevance and how big your play group is?

QuoteAnd I certainly don't want to tell you not to like what you like (or dislike it either!). The only time I have to say something is when someone makes a boneheaded statement like "you can't roleplay in 4th edition" or "this edition is only about combat..".

Statements which are rarer than hen's teeth.

QuoteThose are simply factually wrong statements.. and I can show how they are wrong.  

Which usually amounts to "If you can fix it, it isn't broken"

QuoteBut should everyone like how it works or whatever? No, not at all.

Start with this premise next time instead of shilling or bragging about the size of your gaming groups.