Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366712Games are not technology, and yet innovation does exist. Ideas can be improved upon, because that's part of their nature.

The MAYA principle guarantees that not everyone is going to see an innovation for what it is. But when enough people do, the tipping point is reached, and positive social reorganization occurs around a new idea.

Has positive social reorganization occurred? I think it has.

Whereas I don't agree with you. I know you can simply dismiss that as me not seeing "an innovation for what it is", but you could just as easily be wrong about that. Many people would consider an SLR camera superior to a "super-zoom", but for me I deliberately chose a Panasonic DMC-FZ50 super-zoom because I don't want to carry around a bag of lenses. It has a 28-420mm range (35mm equivalent), it had live view before any SLR ever did, the swivel screen that I find very useful, full manual controls for when I need them, and more customization tools than I even use, including custom white balance. I take what I consider to be damn good pictures with it and have even made money from them, and it's a machine that is compact and easy for me to take with me anywhere I go. At my last job, however, I used a $3500 Nikon SLR with lenses that cost even more than the camera, because for that situation I needed the specific tools and abilities that machine provided me.

I drive a 2003 Mazda Miata. It's a simple two-seat roadster that's kinda small inside, has a radio with cd-player, some climate controls, and a top that opens. It doesn't have a nav system, satelite radio, reverse collision sensor, remote starter, loads of trunk space, traction control, or power seat adjustments. Despite all that, it's the most awesome driving experience I've ever had, and I wouldn't trade the car for anything despite the arthritis in my knees that sometimes makes it difficult to get in and out of. Why? Because it handles like it's on rails, feels like it's going fast even doing 40mph, and lets me feel like I'm actually engaging with the world I'm driving through with all it's sights, sounds and smells. I love my car.

The same way, I prefer other games, including older versions of DnD like OD&D (S&W), to 4e because I'm looking for a different experience than it provides, using different tools than it offers.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366712Games are not technology, and yet innovation does exist. Ideas can be improved upon, because that's part of their nature.

The MAYA principle guarantees that not everyone is going to see an innovation for what it is. But when enough people do, the tipping point is reached, and positive social reorganization occurs around a new idea.

Has positive social reorganization occurred? I think it has.

It just occurred to me.  You work in sales, don't you?

Quote from: StormBringer;366718You should talk to someone in your IT department about upgrading her operating system.  If she is tech savvy enough to find and install Navigator (official support ended 1 Apr of 2008) it is strictly nostalgia.  For common web browsing tasks, which is the most likely activity for such a person, there is nothing to 'know' about Navigator that isn't the exact same on any current browser; ie, 'back', 'forward' and typing in a URL.  Because that is really all that about 90% of end users do.  I have serious doubts that this little old lady wants Communicator integration or is hacking on the source code, so it is unlikely she would have any kind of technically sound reason to keep using it.  I have further doubts the IT department is going to make any efforts to maintain that software on one system, unless that 'older lady' is the owner/CEO or some other high level executive.  I have worked IT; we are ruthless fuckers when it comes to that kind of thing.  And by 'that kind of thing', I mean 'employees who waste our time with stupid requests'.  If you mean 'she uses it at home', then she probably hasn't upgraded her computer in five to eight years, which has no bearing on her browser preferences, her computer probably just can't run a newer browser.  

In either case, your story would have been at least somewhat believable if you had used some other piece of software as an example, say Corel WordPerfect or something.  I was contracting for a government agency in 2005 or 2006, where they still had wide usage of WordPerfect, to the point that our contract specified limited support for that software, and they still wouldn't switch to Office.  No one even tracks Navigator usage separately anymore, it falls under aggregate 1.5% of 'other' users.

Stop saying stupid shit, and I will stop pointing out when you say stupid shit.

Been browsing this thread, and I work in IT as well... and well yeah, I was kind of thinking AM's story seemed a little far fetched in a work environment.  Not saying it's a lie, but... it does seem a little far fetched.

What it comes down to is, when for example Peregrin is talking about Immersion he does not mean the same thing that Thanlis does, hence the disconnect.  Jeff for example, knows exactly what Peregrin is talking about.

Either the powers in 4e bother you because there's really no rhyme or reason as to how or why they actually work in the settings physics or cosmology or they don't bother you.  If it doesn't bother you and you can consider yourself immersed without suspending disbelief, then it's probably hard for you to see how for those who can't immerse due the mechanics/setting separation how that mechanics/setting separation level in 4e is greater then any other version of D&D.

I think what really causes the flames to fly and comments like AM's Navigator, which was a blatant attempt to derail the thread was we were getting to the point about role-playing no one wants to talk about.  Some people Immerse more deeply then others.  Some people play RPGs like they were Necromunda, others play RPGs like they were LARPs with dice.  Most of us are in between.

4e hasn't just embraced the tactical/mechanical elements of D&D, it's basically tossed out all but superficial immersion for the most part.  Yeah they have fluff pieces on races, so do the 40k Codices.

If 4e didn't have such a problem with Immersion, WotC wouldn't be going on to Big Purple and EnWorld asking people why their modules suck so bad.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366712Games are not technology, and yet innovation does exist. Ideas can be improved upon, because that's part of their nature.

The MAYA principle guarantees that not everyone is going to see an innovation for what it is. But when enough people do, the tipping point is reached, and positive social reorganization occurs around a new idea.

Has positive social reorganization occurred? I think it has.

I had to look up what this MAYA principle was, and it reminded me that in the past it was believed that the best way to cure ailments was by leeching. Not every idea is a good one and not every innovation is a positive change. New does not equal better.

Quote from: jeff37923;366734I had to look up what this MAYA principle was, and it reminded me that in the past it was believed that the best way to cure ailments was by leeching. Not every idea is a good one and not every innovation is a positive change. New does not equal better.

It just occurred to me, you aren't in sales, are you?  

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;366708Still, I wonder if the difference in perspectives might be related to the fact you didn't really have much invested in pre-3e D&D; at least it doesn't sound like you did. For some people who began gaming with intenstive, prolonged play of OD&D/Basic/1e/2e, I think there's a sense of D&D as a "way of life". They've modified and adapted it in a variety of ways that allows them to have a personal view of what D&D "is", and 4e clashes with that. 4e is newer of course, so the same thing could happen over time. But 4e is also a much cleaner and more integrated design (by most accounts), which among other factors such as DDI suggests that it's not going to be houseruled quite as widely. Not to mention that with lots of people choosing to simply play a different edition/game instead of working with 4e, there's less pressure from the remaining players of 4e to modify the game.

Nah, I wouldn't have called myself a D&D player any time before probably 3e. And the culture is fundamentally different now; houseruling in general is not as common. Consider V:tM vs. V:tR. There were a million or so fan clans and bloodlines written for V:tM. There are way fewer for V:tR. There isn't even much difference in the games themselves that would account for this.

Quote from: Sigmund;366714This is why I try not to use the word very often. I know what I'm talking about in relation to it, but I've been trying to use other words than that to describe what I'm referring to when I do use that word. I think that so far we've all had a, for the most part, extremely civil discussion about our various opinions on the similarities and differences between OD&D and 4e, and I'm grateful for that. I've come to see how DMing 4e might be much more of an OD&D-like experience than playing it is, and how 4e might really be a big improvement for DMs over previous editions. As I've said before, I only wish I could get over my hang-ups regarding the experience as a player, but so far it's not happening. I'm definitely keeping my eyes on the Essentials though.

Despite my occasional cranky, this has been a pretty good one. I appreciate your willingness to listen. It's a really important discussion for me because I am painfully aware that there are presentation issues with 4e; figuring out where those are makes a big difference.

I will probably wind up talking about my Greyhawk campaign here when it gets underway. It's going to be a pretty big experiment in some of this stuff.

Quote from: Thanlis;366741Nah, I wouldn't have called myself a D&D player any time before probably 3e. And the culture is fundamentally different now; houseruling in general is not as common. Consider V:tM vs. V:tR. There were a million or so fan clans and bloodlines written for V:tM. There are way fewer for V:tR. There isn't even much difference in the games themselves that would account for this.

Nitpick: your example might not be the best one. There were loads of variant Vampire the Masquerade clans and bloodlines, but I don't think there are way fewer in VtR. It's just that the new game integrated the notion of homebrew lines much better with the five base clans and unlimited number of bloodlines spreading from there. Malkavians are now a bloodline, for instance, as are the Giovanni, and so on. These are less visible now because they are integrated to the game much better.

Would you have any evidence showing that there are far less bloodlines in VtR home games now than there were variant clans and bloodlines in the Masquerade?

Quote from: imaro;366721Been browsing this thread, and I work in IT as well... and well yeah, I was kind of thinking AM's story seemed a little far fetched in a work environment.  Not saying it's a lie, but... it does seem a little far fetched.

I work for the government. When a government person tells a contractor (IT or not) she wants Navigator, she gets navigator.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366712Games are not technology, and yet innovation does exist. Ideas can be improved upon, because that's part of their nature.

The MAYA principle guarantees that not everyone is going to see an innovation for what it is. But when enough people do, the tipping point is reached, and positive social reorganization occurs around a new idea.

Has positive social reorganization occurred? I think it has.

Speaking as a social scientist, that makes no sense whatsoever.  People are cultural beings, not logic machines who naturally adopt "superior innovations" just because.  Technologies are often adopted quickly for the advantages they provide in competitive environments and especially in reducing workloads.  That's got nothing to do with habits in entertainment like games.  Nor, when it comes to entertainments should everyone be expected find "superior" the same kinds of fun.

Quote from: Aldarron;366754Speaking as a social scientist, that makes no sense whatsoever.  People are cultural beings, not logic machines who naturally adopt "superior innovations" just because.  Technologies are often adopted quickly for the advantages they provide in competitive environments and especially in reducing workloads.  That's got nothing to do with habits in entertainment like games.  Nor, when it comes to entertainments should everyone be expected find "superior" the same kinds of fun.

Would you like to go into a typical weekly DMs workload in 3E vs 4E, then? I'm not talking about "everybody" or "superiority", I'm talking about this thing that has already definitely irrefutably happened, much to the dismay of a few.

In any case, I thought it had been established that we weren't talking about technology, but ideas.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366749I work for the government. When a government person tells a contractor (IT or not) she wants Navigator, she gets navigator.

What do you do for the government? I know my Girlfriend works for the FCC and she doesn't get whatever she asks for, and she's the one who maintains the FCC website, and was in charge of the DTV change-over. for the northeast to mid-atlantic section of the country.

Quote from: StormBringer;366739It just occurred to me, you aren't in sales, are you?  

I bought three Brother word processor notebooks from the 1980s on eBay a few years ago. I only needed them for writing stuff while on the go, so they were just enough for me to do that. To save and transfer anything I write with them, I have to save it as a txt file on a 3 1/2" diskette and then patch an external diskette drive to another computer. However, the notebooks have about a 9 hour battery life and the one that no longer works gave up its ghost only after it fell two stories on to a parking lot. I own a laptop that costs over 25 times what I paid for all three notebooks and it does not have as long a battery life nor is as sturdy and reliable.

Not only do I believe that new is not always better, but I believe the best tool for a job is often the one that just does the job.

Quote from: Sigmund;366758What do you do for the government? I know my Girlfriend works for the FCC and she doesn't get whatever she asks for, and she's the one who maintains the FCC website, and was in charge of the DTV change-over. for the northeast to mid-atlantic section of the country.

I live near Baltimore, sort of halfway between DC and Baltimore. I can't tell you what organization I work for (especially since I have a malicious stalker here), but "it's not the FCC" should be helpful.

Actual Government employees (GS series) in general get what they want in my organization.