So what is the consensus here about FFG's 40k games like Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Death Watch, Black Crusade & Imperial Guard?
I'm personally a Rogue Trader fan, and have read a bit of the other game lines to verify that they're not what I'm interested in playing.
They are pretty good. If you can handle the usual skills, talents, and percentage dice game.
I enjoyed Dark Heresy 1e, but I'd rather a faster playing version.
I haven't played Rogue Trader or Black Crusade, but I've demo'd Death Watch which was fun, but I'm unsure if I'd run it. I also demo'd Only War (the IG game) and that was an incredible letdown for me. But I ran Imperial Guard campaigns using Traveller 20 years ago, so I admit that I am probably biased.
Quote from: Spinachcat;824369I also demo'd Only War (the IG game) and that was an incredible letdown for me.
Could you elaborate on the letdown?
Well the thing is Only War was suppose to be a supplement to Dark Heresy, but for some reason they thought it was a good idea to make it its own game line. I think it is because they loved the Black Crusade fixes and didn't feel like using the restrictive career paths that Dark Heresy 1E follows.
That is why Only War feels like a hollow shell. It was intended to be a supplement and not a game line.
I've played both Dark Heresy and Death Watch.
They were OK. nothing to write home about.
I fund the system kind of flavorless and a bit dull really.
It could have just been the DM though, he was pretty hopeless at running the game.
Quote from: Snowman0147;824374That is why Only War feels like a hollow shell. It was intended to be a supplement and not a game line.
Hollow shell? Shit, that book looks terrifyingly complete to me. I haven't run it though, what's actually missing?
I like Dark Heresy, what little I've played of it and Rogue Trader looks like it could be lot of fun as well... with the right group (no GW fanboys).
Somewhere on another thread here recently I saw someone mention running a 40K RPG limited to the original Rogue Trader (the wargame) version of the setting and that would be my inclination as well. It's the version I'm most familiar with and less likely to meet up with the dreaded 'canon nazi'.
It's a lot wilder/weirder, open-ended and more humorous... though probably just as deadly.
The talents had flavored and fit well with the setting and some of the skills are specificly designed for the setting. You must of had a bad game master.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;824390Hollow shell? Shit, that book looks terrifyingly complete to me. I haven't run it though, what's actually missing?
Mechanic wise nothing. Fluff wise it covers every thing that should be important for the average IG soldier. So yeah by itself it is complete.
I am, however, comparing the game to other lines to it which are more flesh out in their settings. Only War doesn't even get its own sector instead it uses a sub sector from Dark Heresy 1E sector. I guess what I am saying is that it could use a few more supplements to flesh out the setting of that sub sector at the least. In terms of support Dark Heresy 1E, Rogue Trader, and even Deathwatch (which is even more limited than Only War) has more backing.
Quote from: Snowman0147;824400Mechanic wise nothing. Fluff wise it covers every thing that should be important for the average IG soldier. So yeah by itself it is complete.
Not that I'm defending a game I only have a slim chance of running, but that doesn't really sound like a "hollow shell". It might even be termed praise depending on how highly one ranks "self-contained" in an RPG book's virtues.
I'd be interested to hear more about its other flaws however. Stuff that isn't apparent from reading alone.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;824503Not that I'm defending a game I only have a slim chance of running, but that doesn't really sound like a "hollow shell". It might even be termed praise depending on how highly one ranks "self-contained" in an RPG book's virtues.
I'd be interested to hear more about its other flaws however. Stuff that isn't apparent from reading alone.
Which I had added that other paragraph in which I compare it to other Warhammer 40K RPG games that Fantasy Flight had made.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;824371Could you elaborate on the letdown?
I love IG in 40k. I've run lots of IG using Traveller and our crew has loved it. PCs die like gnats, often in suicidal clashes in hopes to break the enemy in the name of the Emperor to win the day for the Imperium. It was a game of great heroism when you were the underdog. You're not the best and brightest like the Inquisition. You're not supersoldiers of Astartes. You're not even the cyborgs of Mechanicus. You are a terrified mook with a lasgun, trying not to get smashed by your own tanks and long guns.
I got none of the flavor I recognize as IG from Only War. Instead, it was Space Rambo with too many rules.
Quote from: Simlasa;824393Somewhere on another thread here recently I saw someone mention running a 40K RPG limited to the original Rogue Trader (the wargame) version of the setting and that would be my inclination as well.
That would be great fun. I'm actually interested in hunting down the pre-40k game and running a RPG in that setting.
To be fair Spinachcat the devs did in fact said that you DON'T play as ordinary IG soldiers. You are a elite special squad that proved itself in the battlefield already. That is why you get the feeling that they are space rambos because that is exactly what you are. The only people that are suppose to die a lot are your comrades.
Warhammer 40k is what sucked me into the world of tabletop games in the first place and I spend most of my youth entirely absorbed by GW games before D&D captured me in my late teens.
So seeing my two big loves in gaming combined really got me excited when the first edition of DH arived.
In general, I love the games, I think the designers have a great grasp of the setting and a better approach to realising it than GWs own. The books are great reads and many are worth buying just for the read and art. The mechanical design is solid, though not the most inspiring, imo.
That said, I am aprehensive about the sytem being to rules heavy and simulationist for me and mine. PCs and charakter creation are based heavily on the use of talents and I tend to play with many casual gamers (and even the less casual gamers I tend to play with prefer to use only a small part of their brain on rules). I feel that remembering 5-20 talents and what they do will be taxing on them.
On the other side of the screen, I'm not really to fond of monsters being designed just as PCs. You really need to know all talents and traits to run the opposition effectively and properly see how tough the enemies will be.
Basically, this is a system mastery based game, like pathfinder or 3rd edition, and just don't want to invest the time of gaining system mastery, when I could spend my gaming time on setting work and campaign design.
I would have to strip down the system to be more rules light, but that would, of course, take time as well. Still intend to run a kick ass WH40k campaign (or two or three or ten) one day.
Quote from: Gold Roger;824588I would have to strip down the system to be more rules light, but that would, of course, take time as well.
I'm not sure, but from initial inspection the demo rules provided for free on the FF site might make a good starting point for a stripped down ruleset. I know I looked at them and thought they could be cleaned up and reskinned for a light game of Necromunda RPG.
I have played in a DH 1E game or two, a RT and a couple of DW games, personally the universe is cool but the mechanics and system are all wonky. I really wish this used BRP instead, chargen would have been easier and quicker IMO and just would have given a better game overall IMO. I haven't touched it since.
Never seen or heard of any of those.
There's nothing particularly wrong about the system mechanics themselves, but I hated how they divided the setting into several partial-games.
I haven't really been that interested because the setting turns me off. I can understand the WH40K from when it first came out as being a parody and a spin-off of Games Workshop's Classic Traveller stuff, but it just takes itself too seriously with its "darker than grimdark" vibe nowadays.
Quote from: RPGPundit;825061There's nothing particularly wrong about the system mechanics themselves, but I hated how they divided the setting into several partial-games.
While I like Rogue Trader - I agree with you, because if you don't play the other games, you don't get as strong of a background in the other areas of the game. So I'm very knowledgeable about FFG's interpretation of Rogue Traders, I know comparatively little about Inquisitors, Space Marines, Chaos and the Imperial Guard.
Quote from: RPGPundit;825061There's nothing particularly wrong about the system mechanics themselves, but I hated how they divided the setting into several partial-games.
Totally. I'd much rather have had a single game covering the setting as a whole, allowing play as civilians, merchants, aliens... whatever... followed by a dumpster load of supplements that we could pick and choose from depending on our interests.
As it is I'm pretty sure Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are the only two I'd ever be interested in... I don't see the fun in playing Imperial Guard (die by the thousands) or Space Marines (chemo-lobotomized zealots). The chaos variant is just too dark/depressing/squicky if played to the fiction.
I'd probably jump on an Eldar or Tau expansion if they ever made one.
Quote from: Spinachcat;824369I enjoyed Dark Heresy 1e, but I'd rather a faster playing version.
I haven't played Rogue Trader or Black Crusade, but I've demo'd Death Watch which was fun, but I'm unsure if I'd run it. I also demo'd Only War (the IG game) and that was an incredible letdown for me. But I ran Imperial Guard campaigns using Traveller 20 years ago, so I admit that I am probably biased.
2e is better because it's more flexible. The thing about 40k games is that the DM is supposed to be giving you all sorts of bonuses to your rolls depending on what you actually are doing. As a player you should be making it crystal clear you're aiming, taking cover, doing something funky if you're a psyker etc.
Basically you should be getting massive bonuses to every roll if you're actually using the environment like anyone actually does in real life. Problem is the game isn't clear on that and assumes everybody is or does use common sense as a matter of course.
Quote from: Simlasa;825227I'd probably jump on an Eldar or Tau expansion if they ever made one.
Sadly that will never happen because Games Workshop won't ever allow it. It was a miracle that they finally let FF write up the Sisters of Battle. They know the Eldar and Tau are their cash cow for what they care about (minatures and table top skirmish games).
Quote from: Marleycat;825255Sadly that will never happen because Games Workshop won't ever allow it.
I know... I think it's dumb and of course there's probably unofficial rules online for them if I took a moment to look. If I ever run another 40K game they will be a playable option along with Kroot and Squats and maybe even Orks.
I like Black Crusade the best, it's pretty easy to reskin to do something other than Chaos. And it's probably the best iteration of the rules (barring, maybe, Dark Heresy 2E which I haven't looked at).
About the only thing it won't do out of the box is ship to ship combat. The Rogue Trader ship combat rules are...OK. But just OK. It's probably better to treat it more like Age of Sail combat. A smaller ship is probably fucked unless it can come up with a big advantage or is part of a larger fleet.
Quote from: Simlasa;825271I know... I think it's dumb and of course there's probably unofficial rules online for them if I took a moment to look. If I ever run another 40K game they will be a playable option along with Kroot and Squats and maybe even Orks.
If you look in the various supplements (mainly Deathwatch and Rogue Trader lines) you'll see lots of examples of Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Necrons, enough that you should be able to piece together something. Rogue Trader has Kroot and Orc PCs.
Quote from: Michael Gray;825548I like Black Crusade the best, it's pretty easy to reskin to do something other than Chaos. And it's probably the best iteration of the rules (barring, maybe, Dark Heresy 2E which I haven't looked at).
Why is that? I haven't looked at it. I played a lot of Chaos in the wargames but I figured it would be ULTRA-BLEAK to roleplay an insane mutant cultist. What do you picture reskinning it as?
QuoteAbout the only thing it won't do out of the box is ship to ship combat. The Rogue Trader ship combat rules are...OK. But just OK. It's probably better to treat it more like Age of Sail combat.
I'd be tempted to run a game of Battlefleet Gothic for that... not that that would be such a good idea as far as Players and their PCs are concerned.
Quote from: CRKrueger;825593If you look in the various supplements (mainly Deathwatch and Rogue Trader lines) you'll see lots of examples of Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Necrons, enough that you should be able to piece together something. Rogue Trader has Kroot and Orc PCs.
Yeah, I don't think it would be all that hard... especially since neither I or anyone I'm likely to play it with would care that much about 'canon'.
Rogue Trader also added tau and dark eldar pcs as well. Also more orks. You get to be a weird boy, a wych, fire warrior, and archron (i think those dark eldar soldiers are called).
Quote from: Snowman0147;825607Rogue Trader also added tau and dark eldar pcs as well.
I wonder why Dark Eldar and not... nice-ish Eldar... or Eldar pirates. Dark Eldar are pretty much dicks beyond redemption.
Quote from: Simlasa;825604Why is that? I haven't looked at it. I played a lot of Chaos in the wargames but I figured it would be ULTRA-BLEAK to roleplay an insane mutant cultist. What do you picture reskinning it as?
Black Crusade played straight can actually be pretty interesting. It's the only WH40K with a stated endgame: starting your own Black Crusade. The power level runs the gamut. Don't like high powered games, and want it more low key to start with? Make them start as human cultists. Want to stomp all the things? Chaos Space Marines are in there. There's even rules in one of the supplements to become a Demon Prince so people actually listen to you when you start your Crusade.
The rules set is the most...'balanced' out of the 1E books. Well, it's tied with Only War as they use roughly the same rules. Previous games in the line had ridiculous combat bonuses for full auto fire; enough so that it was full auto all the time. The Unnatural Attribute system, which let's superhuman traits fit into the 1-100 attribute scale, was kind of borked. And lots of other little niggling things. The new one is better. Just lots of little things that make the game better.
I picture re-skinning it mostly in regards to the other game lines. Again, it's easy to have low powered games a la Dark Heresy. It's also easy to have stupid high power games a la Deathwatch. It's fairly easy to use the starting 'classes' from each book and then just chuck their progression out the window, using the new BC progression system. So, I can run Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Only War, and Black Crusade; all using the same ruleset. And there's very little hacking that needs to be done to get it to work. You lose a bit of flavor (DW Squad rules, RT Dynasty Creation, OW Regiment Creation), but you gain so much flexibility it's probably worth it.
tl;dr Black Crusade is, basically, a stealth 'generic WH40K RPG' book when you tear the fluff out.
The new FA rules are just as broken as the old ones. They're just broken in the opposite direction. My group thought about using the Black Crusade rules for our Deathwatch game until I pointed out that my heavy bolter Devastator would lose a fight against a genestealer 10 out of 10 times even if we started 500 yards apart on an open plain with perfect lighting conditions and no cover. It's a rather huge issue when your Ballistic Skill in that fight goes from 28 to -2. Maybe someone can roll under -2 on a d100, but I've never managed it.
Are you using deathwatch gene stealers? Just asking cause enemies do change from book to book. What would be a decent enemy in deathwatch would be a extreme challenge in other books. Especially when you have enemies that use unnatural multipliers instead of unnatural pluses.
Quote from: Snowman0147;825667Are you using deathwatch gene stealers? Just asking cause enemies do change from book to book. What would be a decent enemy in deathwatch would be a extreme challenge in other books. Especially when you have enemies that use unnatural multipliers instead of unnatural pluses.
Yeah. When BC first hit, there were some people on the official Deathwatch forums talking about how great it was and how the new rules were so much better. They were encouraging everyone to use the new rules for their DW games. Our group thought about trying it until I pointed out how many penalties are already built into the game.
The thing is, only -20 of the penalties I would take come from the genestealer's abilities. You get another -20 when trying to shoot an enemy who runs, -10 for using full auto (which is all the heavy bolter can do), plus in real combat situations you'll almost always take more penalties for range, lighting, etc. And if an enemy gets close? Your awesome FA weapon is completely useless because everything but pistols magically stops working when something gets within melee range.
Don't get me wrong. Something needed to be done because in the first few games FA attacks could get disgustingly overpowered. But the fix introduced in later games is far from perfect or balanced.
Well to be fair it is certainly better than FA +20. With Black Crusade and beyond you got to make some tactical decisions. You want more accurate shots, or more damaging shots.
Deathwatch and before that decision was a no brainer. You always go FA if you can while go SF if you have to. Single fire is just a waste. With manstopper bullets and autogun you got your low level death dealer.
The problem you had is you applied new rules on old enemies that work better with the old rules. You could had done better by making up your own gene stealers and follow the rules of Black Crusade while ignore the fluff.
Quote from: Snowman0147;825671Well to be fair it is certainly better than FA +20. With Black Crusade and beyond you got to make some tactical decisions. You want more accurate shots, or more damaging shots.
Deathwatch and before that decision was a no brainer. You always go FA if you can while go SF if you have to. Single fire is just a waste. With manstopper bullets and autogun you got your low level death dealer.
Yes and no. There were tactical options in early 40k games, too, particularly with regard to special ammo. Even with BS +20 you'd often waste a lot of those expensive shots. Plus, very few FA guns could be used in melee; I can't even recall any off the top of my head. So packing along an awesome FA weapon like the heavy bolter wasn't always the best option. Heading into a Space Hulk or similarly tight situation? Probably best to leave that thing behind and grab the best pistols and melee weapons you can find instead.
Genestealers are fucking scary. Maybe too scary.
Even using the DW rules, with the +20 for Full Auto (Full Action) wouldn't help in your scenario. Going from a BS28 at 500 yards you'd be at -50 to hit*, and it's got 2 80%-ish dodges, IIRC. The problem is not really with the FA rules. It's that genestealers are Marine killers. You need AoE to really get them. EDIT: Or melee, they are kind of glass cannons. Big hit, low HP.
*Full Auto +20, Running Target -20, Range -30, EDIT2: Preternatural Speed - 20 = -50. With a stated BS of 28** you're looking at rolling a -22. Good luck.
**And how does that even happen? The minimum roll is 32.
Quote from: Michael Gray;825675Genestealers are fucking scary. Maybe too scary.
Absolutely. And it's even scarier that they're meant to be thrown at newbie DW Space Marines. I was shocked when I read them in Final Sanction.
Quote from: Michael Gray;825675Even using the DW rules, with the +20 for Full Auto (Full Action) wouldn't help in your scenario. Going from a BS28 at 500 yards you'd be at -50 to hit*, and it's got 2 80%-ish dodges, IIRC. The problem is not really with the FA rules. It's that genestealers are Marine killers. You need AoE to really get them. EDIT: Or melee, they are kind of glass cannons. Big hit, low HP.
First, I wouldn't be shooting at 500 yards; that was just the starting conditions. I'd only have a round or two of firing before it's on me once it gets in a range without horrific penalties.
This is kinda related to another issue in that I think DW too heavily favors melee characters over ranged but that's a whole other ball of wax.
Quote from: Michael Gray;825675*Full Auto +20, Running Target -20, Range -30, EDIT2: Preternatural Speed - 20 = -50. With a stated BS of 28** you're looking at rolling a -22. Good luck.
**And how does that even happen? The minimum roll is 32.
My BS was 48. With DW rules, I had an effective 28 (48+20-20-20) once the genestealer got close enough I could shoot without penalty. I was probably fooked, but I still had a chance to hit and hope the genestealer blew its dodge. Under the BC rules, my BS would be a measly -2 (48-20-20-10). I was in bad shape either way, but at least in optimal conditions I had a prayer under the original ruleset.
Quote from: Brand55;825688Absolutely. And it's even scarier that they're meant to be thrown at newbie DW Space Marines. I was shocked when I read them in Final Sanction.
First, I wouldn't be shooting at 500 yards; that was just the starting conditions. I'd only have a round or two of firing before it's on me once it gets in a range without horrific penalties.
This is kinda related to another issue in that I think DW too heavily favors melee characters over ranged but that's a whole other ball of wax.
My BS was 48. With DW rules, I had an effective 28 (48+20-20-20) once the genestealer got close enough I could shoot without penalty. I was probably fooked, but I still had a chance to hit and hope the genestealer blew its dodge. Under the BC rules, my BS would be a measly -2 (48-20-20-10). I was in bad shape either way, but at least in optimal conditions I had a prayer under the original ruleset.
On the BS: That makes much more sense. You could get up to an 8 in BC, with an aim half action. But still wing and a prayer time. The prayer being that the 'stealer doesn't dodge if you even get close to hitting them. Flamers and grenades seem to be the best choices for ranged attacks on genestealers.
Genestealers are supposed to be scary, they're equal opponents for Terminators, not standard Marines.
The problem with DHII is the problem with the whole approach - namely that each game is scaled differently with metagame rules to try and express a particular aspect of the Imperium, and address corresponding themes.
I'm not sure what system you'd use for a "all-in-one" 40Krpg that could handle Bloodthirsters vs. Grey Knight Dreadknights as well as Hivescum vs. Acolytes.
Ranging from Necromunda to 40K Apocalypse is a big power range. Rifts? Gurps? FASERIP? :idunno:.
I think this version is ok, but scalability I think might be an issue.
40K was definitely way better when it was more humorous and less 'grimdark'.
Quote from: RPGPundit;82609440K was definitely way better when it was more humorous and less 'grimdark'.
"Hey, wanna relax after a long hard day in a confusing heartless world by playing dead-seriously in a universe where innocent people get dragged of for millennia of unimaginable torture so that other not-innocent people don't suffer the same fate for eternity?"
Quote from: RPGPundit;82609440K was definitely way better when it was more humorous and less 'grimdark'.
I find the dead serious tone used for presentation does nothing but increase the hilarity, both intended and unintended. And really, even reading old RT era stuff or 2nd edition material, the tone was already mostly rather serious and everything rather dark. That doesn't change that the setting was and still is overblown and ridiculous.
I treat 40k like a dignified, stuffy gentleman in a slapstick routine.
If anything detracts from the humor, I think its the many fans taking just about everything about the setting and hobby way to serious.
Necro-ing my own thread, during COVID I finally got the opportunity to run a RT campaign for my then 11-12 year old son. We played 30 sessions over about 8 months.
In short, the game was awesome. Rogue Trader works super well for one player, more so than other RPGs I've played. We went through several of the premade adventures and modules... Lure of the Expanse (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7933645-rogue-trader) largely lived up to its reputation as solid fun. I've not used premade campaigns much, but it struck me as overall very useable with few (though gaping in one place) plotholes.
Wrath & Glory for the win.