Quote from: Simlasa;825604Why is that? I haven't looked at it. I played a lot of Chaos in the wargames but I figured it would be ULTRA-BLEAK to roleplay an insane mutant cultist. What do you picture reskinning it as?

Black Crusade played straight can actually be pretty interesting. It's the only WH40K with a stated endgame: starting your own Black Crusade. The power level runs the gamut. Don't like high powered games, and want it more low key to start with? Make them start as human cultists. Want to stomp all the things? Chaos Space Marines are in there. There's even rules in one of the supplements to become a Demon Prince so people actually listen to you when you start your Crusade.

The rules set is the most...'balanced' out of the 1E books. Well, it's tied with Only War as they use roughly the same rules. Previous games in the line had ridiculous combat bonuses for full auto fire; enough so that it was full auto all the time. The Unnatural Attribute system, which let's superhuman traits fit into the 1-100 attribute scale, was kind of borked. And lots of other little niggling things. The new one is better. Just lots of little things that make the game better.

I picture re-skinning it mostly in regards to the other game lines. Again, it's easy to have low powered games a la Dark Heresy. It's also easy to have stupid high power games a la Deathwatch. It's fairly easy to use the starting 'classes' from each book and then just chuck their progression out the window, using the new BC progression system. So, I can run Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Only War, and Black Crusade; all using the same ruleset. And there's very little hacking that needs to be done to get it to work. You lose a bit of flavor (DW Squad rules, RT Dynasty Creation, OW Regiment Creation), but you gain so much flexibility it's probably worth it.

tl;dr  Black Crusade is, basically, a stealth 'generic WH40K RPG' book when you tear the fluff out.

The new FA rules are just as broken as the old ones. They're just broken in the opposite direction. My group thought about using the Black Crusade rules for our Deathwatch game until I pointed out that my heavy bolter Devastator would lose a fight against a genestealer 10 out of 10 times even if we started 500 yards apart on an open plain with perfect lighting conditions and no cover. It's a rather huge issue when your Ballistic Skill in that fight goes from 28 to -2. Maybe someone can roll under -2 on a d100, but I've never managed it.

Are you using deathwatch gene stealers?  Just asking cause enemies do change from book to book.  What would be a decent enemy in deathwatch would be a extreme challenge in other books.  Especially when you have enemies that use unnatural multipliers instead of unnatural pluses.

Quote from: Snowman0147;825667Are you using deathwatch gene stealers?  Just asking cause enemies do change from book to book.  What would be a decent enemy in deathwatch would be a extreme challenge in other books.  Especially when you have enemies that use unnatural multipliers instead of unnatural pluses.

Yeah. When BC first hit, there were some people on the official Deathwatch forums talking about how great it was and how the new rules were so much better. They were encouraging everyone to use the new rules for their DW games. Our group thought about trying it until I pointed out how many penalties are already built into the game.

The thing is, only -20 of the penalties I would take come from the genestealer's abilities. You get another -20 when trying to shoot an enemy who runs, -10 for using full auto (which is all the heavy bolter can do), plus in real combat situations you'll almost always take more penalties for range, lighting, etc. And if an enemy gets close? Your awesome FA weapon is completely useless  because everything but pistols magically stops working when something gets within melee range.

Don't get me wrong. Something needed to be done because in the first few games FA attacks could get disgustingly overpowered. But the fix introduced in later games is far from perfect or balanced.

Well to be fair it is certainly better than FA +20.  With Black Crusade and beyond you got to make some tactical decisions.  You want more accurate shots, or more damaging shots.  

Deathwatch and before that decision was a no brainer.  You always go FA if you can while go SF if you have to.  Single fire is just a waste.  With manstopper bullets and autogun you got your low level death dealer.

The problem you had is you applied new rules on old enemies that work better with the old rules.  You could had done better by making up your own gene stealers and follow the rules of Black Crusade while ignore the fluff.

Quote from: Snowman0147;825671Well to be fair it is certainly better than FA +20.  With Black Crusade and beyond you got to make some tactical decisions.  You want more accurate shots, or more damaging shots.  

Deathwatch and before that decision was a no brainer.  You always go FA if you can while go SF if you have to.  Single fire is just a waste.  With manstopper bullets and autogun you got your low level death dealer.

Yes and no. There were tactical options in early 40k games, too, particularly with regard to special ammo. Even with BS +20 you'd often waste a lot of those expensive shots. Plus, very few FA guns could be used in melee; I can't even recall any off the top of my head. So packing along an awesome FA weapon like the heavy bolter wasn't always the best option. Heading into a Space Hulk or similarly tight situation? Probably best to leave that thing behind and grab the best pistols and melee weapons you can find instead.

Genestealers are fucking scary. Maybe too scary.

Even using the DW rules, with the +20 for Full Auto (Full Action) wouldn't help in your scenario. Going from a BS28 at 500 yards you'd be at -50 to hit*, and it's got 2 80%-ish dodges, IIRC. The problem is not really with the FA rules. It's that genestealers are Marine killers. You need AoE to really get them. EDIT: Or melee, they are kind of glass cannons. Big hit, low HP.


*Full Auto +20, Running Target -20, Range -30, EDIT2: Preternatural Speed - 20 = -50. With a stated BS of 28** you're looking at rolling a -22. Good luck.

**And how does that even happen? The minimum roll is 32.

Quote from: Michael Gray;825675Genestealers are fucking scary. Maybe too scary.

Absolutely. And it's even scarier that they're meant to be thrown at newbie DW Space Marines. I was shocked when I read them in Final Sanction.

Quote from: Michael Gray;825675Even using the DW rules, with the +20 for Full Auto (Full Action) wouldn't help in your scenario. Going from a BS28 at 500 yards you'd be at -50 to hit*, and it's got 2 80%-ish dodges, IIRC. The problem is not really with the FA rules. It's that genestealers are Marine killers. You need AoE to really get them. EDIT: Or melee, they are kind of glass cannons. Big hit, low HP.

First, I wouldn't be shooting at 500 yards; that was just the starting conditions. I'd only have a round or two of firing before it's on me once it gets in a range without horrific penalties.

This is kinda related to another issue in that I think DW too heavily favors melee characters over ranged but that's a whole other ball of wax.

Quote from: Michael Gray;825675*Full Auto +20, Running Target -20, Range -30, EDIT2: Preternatural Speed - 20 = -50. With a stated BS of 28** you're looking at rolling a -22. Good luck.

**And how does that even happen? The minimum roll is 32.

My BS was 48. With DW rules, I had an effective 28 (48+20-20-20) once the genestealer got close enough I could shoot without penalty. I was probably fooked, but I still had a chance to hit and hope the genestealer blew its dodge. Under the BC rules, my BS would be a measly -2 (48-20-20-10). I was in bad shape either way, but at least in optimal conditions I had a prayer under the original ruleset.

Quote from: Brand55;825688Absolutely. And it's even scarier that they're meant to be thrown at newbie DW Space Marines. I was shocked when I read them in Final Sanction.

First, I wouldn't be shooting at 500 yards; that was just the starting conditions. I'd only have a round or two of firing before it's on me once it gets in a range without horrific penalties.

This is kinda related to another issue in that I think DW too heavily favors melee characters over ranged but that's a whole other ball of wax.

My BS was 48. With DW rules, I had an effective 28 (48+20-20-20) once the genestealer got close enough I could shoot without penalty. I was probably fooked, but I still had a chance to hit and hope the genestealer blew its dodge. Under the BC rules, my BS would be a measly -2 (48-20-20-10). I was in bad shape either way, but at least in optimal conditions I had a prayer under the original ruleset.

On the BS: That makes much more sense. You could get up to an 8 in BC, with an aim half action. But still wing and a prayer time. The prayer being that the 'stealer doesn't dodge if you even get close to hitting them. Flamers and grenades seem to be the best choices for ranged attacks on genestealers.

Genestealers are supposed to be scary, they're equal opponents for Terminators, not standard Marines.

The problem with DHII is the problem with the whole approach - namely that each game is scaled differently with metagame rules to try and express a particular aspect of the Imperium, and address corresponding themes.

I'm not sure what system you'd use for a "all-in-one" 40Krpg that could handle Bloodthirsters vs. Grey Knight Dreadknights as well as Hivescum vs. Acolytes.  

Ranging from Necromunda to 40K Apocalypse is a big power range.  Rifts?  Gurps? FASERIP?  :idunno:.

I think this version is ok, but scalability I think might be an issue.

40K was definitely way better when it was more humorous and less 'grimdark'.

Quote from: RPGPundit;82609440K was definitely way better when it was more humorous and less 'grimdark'.

"Hey, wanna relax after a long hard day in a confusing heartless world by playing dead-seriously in a universe where innocent people get dragged of for millennia of unimaginable torture so that other not-innocent people don't suffer the same fate for eternity?"

Quote from: RPGPundit;82609440K was definitely way better when it was more humorous and less 'grimdark'.

I find the dead serious tone used for presentation does nothing but increase the hilarity, both intended and unintended. And really, even reading old RT era stuff or 2nd edition material, the tone was already mostly rather serious and everything rather dark. That doesn't change that the setting was and still is overblown and ridiculous.

I treat 40k like a dignified, stuffy gentleman in a slapstick routine.

If anything detracts from the humor, I think its the many fans taking just about everything about the setting and hobby way to serious.

Necro-ing my own thread, during COVID I finally got the opportunity to run a RT campaign for my then 11-12 year old son. We played 30 sessions over about 8 months.

In short, the game was awesome. Rogue Trader works super well for one player, more so than other RPGs I've played. We went through several of the premade adventures and modules... Lure of the Expanse largely lived up to its reputation as solid fun. I've not used premade campaigns much, but it struck me as overall very useable with few (though gaping in one place) plotholes.

Wrath & Glory for the win.