Looking over some 3.5 stuff, and I realize I never figured out what was up with the Track feat:

Quote from: OGL
Track

Benefit: To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow. You move at half your normal speed (or at your normal speed with a -5 penalty on the check, or at up to twice your normal speed with a -20 penalty on the check). The DC depends on the surface and the prevailing conditions, as given on Table: Track DC.

Very Soft Ground: Any surface (fresh snow, thick dust, wet mud) that holds deep, clear impressions of footprints.
Soft Ground: Any surface soft enough to yield to pressure, but firmer than wet mud or fresh snow, in which a creature leaves frequent but shallow footprints.
Firm Ground: Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like) or exceptionally soft or dirty indoor surfaces (thick rugs and very dirty or dusty floors). The creature might leave some traces (broken branches or tufts of hair), but it leaves only occasional or partial footprints.
Hard Ground: Any surface that doesn't hold footprints at all, such as bare rock or an indoor floor. Most streambeds fall into this category, since any footprints left behind are obscured or washed away. The creature leaves only traces (scuff marks or displaced pebbles).

Several modifiers may apply to the Survival check, as given on Table: Track DC Modifiers. If you fail a Survival check, you can retry after 1 hour (outdoors) or 10 minutes (indoors) of searching.

Normal: Without this feat, you can use the Survival skill to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Search skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature's passage using the DCs given above, but you can't use Search to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them.

Special: A ranger automatically has Track as a bonus feat. He need not select it. This feat does not allow you to find or follow the tracks made by a subject of a pass without trace spell.

We never figured out why this was a feat, and not just another skill, or even part of the Survival skill. I don't think it ever came up in our games, regardless. What was your experience? Was the Track feat a meaningful inclusion, or a waste of ink?

It was a waste of ink. The writers should have just put the Track feat into the Survival skill, and this sentiment goes double for the Rogue's Trapfinding ability, which should have been fully loaded into the Search skill. Just let the skill do what it does, but let Rangers and Rogues be better at their job than other classes. Easy peasy.

Well, it sounds like you can't track anything without it.

QuoteNormal: Without this feat, you can use the Survival skill to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Search skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature's passage using the DCs given above, but you can't use Search to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them

Doesn't make much sense.  You don't need to be Aragorn to follow some footprints to see where they lead. 

Perhaps the Track feat could let you do things like identify how many creatures passed by a certain area, what size they were, what type of creature (with a high enough roll), and maybe, what those creatures were doing in the area? To harken back to Aragorn's "A hobbit lay here." moment in The Two Towers movie.

At least it was a built in ability for rangers. Though 3E's skill system was hilariously borked in various ways.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 28, 2021, 06:31:59 AM

QuoteNormal: Without this feat, you can use the Survival skill to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Search skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature's passage using the DCs given above, but you can't use Search to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them

Doesn't make much sense.  You don't need to be Aragorn to follow some footprints to see where they lead.

Was this one of those "Anyone can try to track when the DC < 20, but you need the Track feat for DC 20+" situations?

Quote from: Aglondir on December 27, 2021, 10:13:31 PM
What was your experience? Was the Track feat a meaningful inclusion, or a waste of ink?

I found all Feats a waste of ink in 3e, and "Track" is no exception.

The questions you ask about it could be meaningfully asked of Feats in general. The underlying problem to me is intrinsic to the notion of "Feats" -- banning an existing choice vector in order to reward characters by giving back what they originally had. Inevitably, the question comes up as to how everyone else lacks that same ability.

Quote from: Zalman on December 28, 2021, 11:23:24 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on December 27, 2021, 10:13:31 PM
What was your experience? Was the Track feat a meaningful inclusion, or a waste of ink?

I found all Feats a waste of ink in 3e, and "Track" is no exception.

The questions you ask about it could be meaningfully asked of Feats in general. The underlying problem to me is intrinsic to the notion of "Feats" -- banning an existing choice vector in order to reward characters by giving back what they originally had. Inevitably, the question comes up as to how everyone else lacks that same ability.

I found it useful to customize a character, but 3E and PF took it to almost absurd extremes and never bothered to try and balance some of the feats.

I can't remember who it was, but one of the 3E devs straight up admitted some of the feats were 'traps' -- they looked good, but mechanically they weren't near as effective as you'd think. Also, feat taxes suck.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on December 28, 2021, 12:41:09 AM
It was a waste of ink. The writers should have just put the Track feat into the Survival skill, and this sentiment goes double for the Rogue's Trapfinding ability, which should have been fully loaded into the Search skill. Just let the skill do what it does, but let Rangers and Rogues be better at their job than other classes. Easy peasy.

Agree. The few times that tracking came up, we just rolled Survival vs. a DC. No one really cared. 

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 28, 2021, 09:23:16 AM
At least it was a built in ability for rangers. Though 3E's skill system was hilariously borked in various ways.

For the most part, I like the 3E skill system. What parts are borked?

Quote from: Aglondir on December 28, 2021, 03:13:11 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 28, 2021, 09:23:16 AM
At least it was a built in ability for rangers. Though 3E's skill system was hilariously borked in various ways.

For the most part, I like the 3E skill system. What parts are borked?

Too many skills, not enough points to start with, and some classes were downright crippled in terms of skill points. Fighters in particular.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 28, 2021, 03:28:24 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on December 28, 2021, 03:13:11 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 28, 2021, 09:23:16 AM
At least it was a built in ability for rangers. Though 3E's skill system was hilariously borked in various ways.

For the most part, I like the 3E skill system. What parts are borked?

Too many skills, not enough points to start with, and some classes were downright crippled in terms of skill points. Fighters in particular.

I can see that, especially the last point. I like True 20's approach: 28 skills, fighters and adepts start with 4 skills, experts start with 8. M&M is even better, since you just buy skills you want.

Quote from: Aglondir on December 28, 2021, 03:13:11 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 28, 2021, 09:23:16 AM
At least it was a built in ability for rangers. Though 3E's skill system was hilariously borked in various ways.

For the most part, I like the 3E skill system. What parts are borked?

3e/3.5 is my favorite game system, but the 3.0/3.5 skill system was unnecessarily convoluted. Problems:

(1.) Without the Track feat, you can only use the Survival skill for tracking if the DC for the task is 10 or lower.

(2.) Without the Rogue's Trapfinding ability, you can only use the Search skill to find traps if the DC is 20 or lower.

(3.) Most character classes do not provide enough skill points to make your character well-rounded. The game should have included backgrounds, that permit you to have a more well-rounded character.

(4.) Skill point gains are NOT retroactive. To make a point of that, here's a breakdown of two characters:

(a) 1st-level Rogue/1st-level Fighter (Str 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Dex 15, Con 13, Cha 8; Human): 49 skill points.

(b) 1st-level Fighter/1st-level Rogue (Str 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Dex 15, Con 13, Cha 8; Human): 31 skill points.

These two characters might have identical feats, identical ability scores, and identical equipment. These two characters are the same class, but one character has more skill points than the other one.....and that's because it depends upon which character class you choose first. These skill rules discourage you from creating a character organically, through actual gameplay. Instead, you have to backwards engineer your character from 1st-level to 20th-level. I'm not really a fan of that.

(5.) Skill synergy adds an extra unnecessary level of complexity. Synergy bonuses give you an unnamed +2 bonus to a skill if you have 5 ranks in a different skill.

(6.) Skill Point totals go a little too far off the RNG. I can have a 5th-level half-Elven Bard with a Diplomacy skill bonus somewhere in the range of +25.

Diplomacy (8 ranks): +8
18 Charisma: +4
Half-Elven Racial Bonus: +2
Negotiator Feat: +2
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) Feat: +3
Synergy Bonus (Bluff): +2
Synergy Bonus (Knowledge [nobility and royalty]): +2
Synergy Bonus (Sense Motive): +2

Total: +25

This total is reached using only the Core Rules, with no magic to aid him. It's a little ridiculous. There's more, but I don't have time to get into right now. I think you get the gist of it.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on December 28, 2021, 08:59:56 PM
3e/3.5 is my favorite game system, but the 3.0/3.5 skill system was unnecessarily convoluted. Problems:

(1.) Without the Track feat, you can only use the Survival skill for tracking if the DC for the task is 10 or lower.

(2.) Without the Rogue's Trapfinding ability, you can only use the Search skill to find traps if the DC is 20 or lower.

(3.) Most character classes do not provide enough skill points to make your character well-rounded. The game should have included backgrounds, that permit you to have a more well-rounded character.

(4.) Skill point gains are NOT retroactive. To make a point of that, here's a breakdown of two characters:

(a) 1st-level Rogue/1st-level Fighter (Str 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Dex 15, Con 13, Cha 8; Human): 49 skill points.

(b) 1st-level Fighter/1st-level Rogue (Str 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Dex 15, Con 13, Cha 8; Human): 31 skill points.

These two characters might have identical feats, identical ability scores, and identical equipment. These two characters are the same class, but one character has more skill points than the other one.....and that's because it depends upon which character class you choose first. These skill rules discourage you from creating a character organically, through actual gameplay. Instead, you have to backwards engineer your character from 1st-level to 20th-level. I'm not really a fan of that.

(5.) Skill synergy adds an extra unnecessary level of complexity. Synergy bonuses give you an unnamed +2 bonus to a skill if you have 5 ranks in a different skill.

(6.) Skill Point totals go a little too far off the RNG. I can have a 5th-level half-Elven Bard with a Diplomacy skill bonus somewhere in the range of +25.

Diplomacy (8 ranks): +8
18 Charisma: +4
Half-Elven Racial Bonus: +2
Negotiator Feat: +2
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) Feat: +3
Synergy Bonus (Bluff): +2
Synergy Bonus (Knowledge [nobility and royalty]): +2
Synergy Bonus (Sense Motive): +2

Total: +25

This total is reached using only the Core Rules, with no magic to aid him. It's a little ridiculous. There's more, but I don't have time to get into right now. I think you get the gist of it.

All true. In general, True 20//MM2 solved most of these, but not all. Some thoughts:

1 and 2: I think this is niche protection. Which is fine, but I wish they had thought of a better way to do it than skills. I hated class/cross-class skills and half skill ranks. Why can't my fighter be diplomatic? What a mess.

3: True. I prefer "Everyone has X points" or the 4/8/4 split of T20.

4. I wasn't aware of this one! Probably because I never multi-class. I'm not a fan of career planning or level-dipping.

5. Hate, hate, hate skill synergy. I was glad when some of the 3.x variants ditched it.

6. Ah, the diplomancer... a topic all to itself. Just looking at the numbers, if you ditch synergy, it drops to +19, which is still a bit high.