Quote from: tenbones;1141072Comments: Burglars are more clearly defined as *THIEVES*.

The more I read the FC Burglar write-up, the more I like it.

Next up - the Ranger.

This is going to be interesting because the class itself has always been one of great discussion. What IS a Ranger? The Strider debate. The Magic/No-Magic Debate. The Ranger vs. Barbarian Debate. The Fighter w/Survival Skills debate. Archer? Dual-Wield? The list goes on and on.

This will be interesting because it's going to allow us to crack the door just a LITTLE on combat task resolution (dual wielding for instance) in Fantasy Craft vs. 3.x/PF.

Edit: and for anyone following this thread, I plan on making some basic characters once we go through the Class sections so we can literally see the same characters side-by-side within each system and talk about what they're capable of relative to one another and get this as apples-to-apples as possible.

D&D 3.5 Ranger
Defined as: The forests and hills are home to fierce and cunning creatures, such as blood-thirsty owlbears and malicious displacer beasts. But more cunning and powerful than these monsters is the ranger, a skilled hunter and stalker. He knows the woods as if they were his home (as indeed they are), and he knows his prey in deadly detail. A ranger often accepts the role of protector, aiding those who live in or travel through the woods. In addition, a ranger carries grudges against certain types of creatures and looks for opportunities to find and destroy them. A ranger can use a variety of weapons and is quite capable in combat. His skills allow him to survive in the wilderness, to find his prey, and to avoid detection. He also has special knowledge about certain types of creatures, which makes it easier for him to find and defeat such foes. Finally, an experienced ranger has such a tie to nature that he can actually draw upon natural power to cast divine spells, much as a druid does.

Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor and shields (except tower shields).
Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table 3–14: Ranger Favored Enemies. Due to his extensive study of his chosen type of foe and
training in the proper techniques for combating such creatures, the ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2. For example, a 5th-level ranger has two favored enemies; against one he gains a +4 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks and weapon damage rolls, and against the other he has a +2 bonus. At 10th level, he has three favored enemies, and he gains an additional +2 bonus, which he can allocate to the bonus against any one of his three favored enemies. Thus, his bonuses could be either +4, +4, +2 or +6, +2, +2. If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy (for instance, devils are both evil outsiders and lawful outsiders), the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher. See the Monster Manual for more information on types of creatures.

Track: A ranger gains Track  as a bonus feat.

Wild Empathy (Ex): A ranger can use body language, vocalizations, and demeanor to improve the attitude of an animal (such as a bear or a monitor lizard). This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person. The ranger rolls 1d20 and adds his ranger level and his Charisma modifier  to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use wild empathy, the ranger and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet
of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. The ranger can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (such as a basilisk or a girallon), but he takes a –4 penalty on the check.

Combat Style (Ex): At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. This choice affects the character's class features but does not restrict his
selection of feats or special abilities in any way. If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. The benefits of the ranger's chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Endurance: A ranger gains Endurance (see page 93) as a bonus feat at 3rd level.

Animal Companion (Ex): At 4th level, a ranger gains an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the DM's campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the DM may add the following creatures to the ranger's list of options: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the ranger on his adventures as appropriate for its kind. (For instance, an aquatic creature can't adventure with a ranger on land and shouldn't be selected by a nonaquatic character without extenuating circumstances). In most cases, the animal companion functions as a mount, sentry, scout, or hunting animal, rather than as a protector. This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, except that the ranger's effective druid level is one-half his ranger level. For example, the animal companion of a 4th-
level ranger would be the equivalent of a 2nd-level druid's animal companion. A ranger may select from the alternative lists of animal companions just as a druid can, though again his effective druid level is half his ranger level. Thus, he must be at least an 8th-level ranger to select from the druid's list of 4th-level animal companions, and if he chooses one of those animals, his effective druid level would be reduced by 3, to 1st level. Like a druid, a ranger cannot select an alternative animal if the choice would reduce his effective druid level below 1st.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells (the same type of spells available to the cleric, druid, and paladin), which are drawn from the ranger
spell list (page 191). A ranger must choose and prepare his spells in advance. To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Wis 11 for 1st-level spells, Wis 12 for 2nd-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger's spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger's Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a ranger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. When Table 3–13 indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level (for instance, 1st-level spells for a 4th-level ranger), he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level. The ranger does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does. A ranger prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though he cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation. Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level.

Improved Combat Style (Ex): At 6th level, a ranger's aptitude in his chosen combat style (archery or two-weapon combat) improves. If he selected archery at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Manyshot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the ranger selected two-weapon combat at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. As before, the benefits of the ranger's chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a ranger may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.

Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a ranger can move at his normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a ranger can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon's fiery breath or a fireball), he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the ranger is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless ranger (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Combat Style Mastery (Ex): At 11th level, a ranger's aptitude in his chosen combat style (archery or two-weapon combat) improves again. If he selected archery at 2nd level, he is treated as
having the Improved Precise Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the ranger selected two-weapon combat at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. As before, the benefits of the ranger's chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Comments: If ever there was a class that highlights the design-flaws of 3.x I'd be hard pressed to find a better example than the Ranger. Conceptually it's *all over the place*. It's a cut-rate fighter , a cut-rate Druid, a cut-rate Barbarian all rolled into one thing trying to be all things. Instead of having a clean central core concept with options to allow the player to customize that concept contextually to the campaign setting they're in - D&D's Ranger packs all this incongruous stuff into the core class, trying to emulate Strider from LOTR, while trying to also appease the historical representations of the class from previous edition... WITHOUT trying to fundamentally understand what those mechanics were trying to actually emulate. This is precisely where we get into the Caster Ranger/No-Caster Ranger. And it's a bit of a mess when you see while many of these abilities are thematically fine (if you're just playing anything-goes D&D) as you dig deeper into the combat mechanics of 3.x you'll see how lackluster they are *because* of the assumptions of D&D Anything Goes fantasy that's cooked in. I mean... why assume that Ranger fight fucking displacer beasts as a norm? They're aberrations of nature... are they THAT plentiful in all assumed locations where Rangers would exist? Yet... that's part of the assumed description. It's a very bad take on a concept that arguably is better serviced through more focus.

The overblown notion of having a Pet is a good concept, for instance. The mechanics of having a pet - suck. The class suffers from a lot of the problems that 3.x generated by giving non-casters these incongruous "cool sounding abilities" that in play were superfluous mechanically - especially when the these abilities were just re-skinned poorly powered Feats. Again - it could have been salvageable, but as written, they're garbage. Because I'm sure all those 20th level Rangers out there sure are happy they have +4 damage to Orcs! woo... and the fact you are forced to have abilities you may not even want, but are factored into the assumptions of your class *as balance*. Horrible unfocused design.

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Pathfinder Ranger
Defined as: For those who relish the thrill of the hunt, there are only predators and prey. Be they scouts, trackers, or bounty hunters, rangers share much in common: unique mastery of specialized weapons, skill at stalking even the most elusive game, and the expertise to defeat a wide range of quarries. Knowledgeable, patient, and skilled hunters, these rangers hound man, beast, and monster alike, gaining insight into the way of the predator, skill in varied environments, and ever more lethal martial prowess. While some track man-eating creatures to protect the frontier, others pursue more cunning game--even fugitives among their own people. Rangers are deft skirmishers, either in melee or at range, capable of skillfully dancing in and out of battle. Their abilities allow them to deal significant harm to specific types of foes, but their skills are valuable against all manner of enemies.

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features[
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger selects a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table. He gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against creatures of his selected type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against them. A ranger may make Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify these creatures. At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +2. If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table below. (Note that there are other types of humanoid to choose from in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary--those called out specifically on the table below are merely the most common.) If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.

Track (Ex): A ranger adds half his level (minimum 1) to Survival skill checks made to follow tracks.

Wild Empathy (Ex): A ranger can improve the initial attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person. The ranger rolls 1d20 and adds his ranger level and his Charisma bonus to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use wild empathy, the ranger and the animal must be within 30 feet of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. The ranger can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but he takes a –4 penalty on the check.

Combat Style Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. If the ranger selects archery, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. At 6th level, he adds Improved Precise Shot and Manyshot to the list. At 10th level, he adds Pinpoint targeting and Shot on the Run to the list. If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash,
Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense to the list. At 10th level, he adds Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend to the list.The benefits of the ranger's chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a ranger selects a combat style, it cannot be changed.

Endurance: A ranger gains Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level.

Favored Terrain (Ex): At 3rd level, a ranger may select a type of terrain from the Favored Terrains table. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks when he is in this terrain. A ranger traveling through his favored terrain normally leaves no trail and cannot be tracked (though he may leave a trail if he so chooses).
At 8th level and every five levels thereafter, the ranger may select an additional favored terrain In addition, at each such interval, the skill bonus and initiative bonus in any one favored terrain (including the one just selected, if so desired), increases by +2. If a specific terrain falls into more than one category of favored terrain, the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher

Hunter's Bond (Ex): At 4th level, a ranger forms a bond with his hunting companions. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed. The first is a bond to his companions. This bond allows him to spend a move action to grant half his favored enemy bonus against a single target of the appropriate type to all allies within 30 feet who can see or hear him. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to the ranger's Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). This bonus does not stack with any favored enemy bonuses possessed by his allies; they use whichever bonus is higher. The second option is to form a close bond with an animal companion. A ranger who selects an animal companion can choose from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse, pony, snake (viper or constrictor), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the ranger may choose a shark instead. This animal is a loyal companion that
accompanies the ranger on his adventures as appropriate for its kind. A ranger's animal companion shares his favored enemy and favored terrain bonuses.This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the Nature Bond class feature), except that the ranger's effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list presented in Chapter 10. A ranger must choose and prepare his spells in advance. To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger's spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger's Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a ranger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 3–12. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score (see Table 1–3). When Table 3–12 indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level. A ranger must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain his daily allotment of spells. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation. Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level
and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a ranger may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect him.

Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a ranger can move at his normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Evasion (Ex): When he reaches 9th level, a ranger can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Ref lex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the ranger is wearing light armor, medium armor, or no armor. A helpless ranger does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Quarry (Ex): At 11th level, a ranger can, as a standard action, denote one target within his line of sight as his quarry. Whenever he is following the tracks of his quarry, a ranger can take 10 on his Survival skill checks while moving at normal speed, without penalty. In addition, he receives a +2 insight bonus on attack rolls made against his quarry, and all critical threats are automatically confirmed. A ranger can have no more than one quarry at a time and the creature's type must correspond to one of his favored enemy types. He can dismiss this effect at any time as a free action, but he cannot select a new quarry for 24 hours. If the ranger sees proof that his quarry is dead, he can select a new quarry after waiting 1 hour.

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 12th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of his favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 16th level, a ranger's evasion improves. This ability works like evasion, except that while the ranger still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, he henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless ranger does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.

Improved Quarry (Ex): At 19th level, the ranger's ability to hunt his quarry improves. He can now select a quarry as a free action, and can now take 20 while using Survival to track his quarry, while moving at normal speed without penalty. His insight bonus to attack his quarry increases to +4. If his quarry is killed or dismissed, he can select a new one after 10 minutes have passed.

Master Hunter (Ex):  A ranger of 20th level becomes a master hunter. He can always move at full speed while using Survival to follow tracks without penalty. He can, as a standard action, make a single attack against a favored enemy at his full attack bonus. If the attack hits, the target takes damage normally and must make a Fortitude save or die. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the ranger's level + the ranger's Wisdom modifier. A ranger can choose instead to deal an amount of nonlethal damage equal to the creature's current hit points. A successful save negates this damage. A ranger can use this ability once per day against each favored enemy type he possesses, but not against the same creature more than once in a 24-hour period.

Comments: Small improvement... But in lemming-like fashion the Pathfinder Ranger leaps off the cliff right behind the D&D3.5 Ranger. Slavishly chained to the 20-lvl spread, it nickels and dimes the class with lackluster abilities that *should* be weighted heavier and more meaningful, but compared to other classes they come out as cut-rate. The real issue is this inability to define what the fuck a Ranger is - and instead it tries to be everyone's favorite flavor of an "outdoors warrior druid" from previous editions and videogames (looking at you WoW). And does a piss-poor job of representing those mechanics. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist - but as a CLASS there should be a unifying core principle, and everything else should be OPTIONAL. Because the class is now weighted with abilities that may be nothing but superflous to the player... but now you're stuck with it. Thanks for the Pet Shark anyhow.

Likewise - the definition doesn't quite match. Unique fighting abilties? They're literally lifting elements of the Fighter class and pretending they're something else. Once again - Favored Enemy is propped up as some big deal when most Rangers are going to be picking common low-level enemies that beyond a certain point are **inconsequential** to most bog-standard games. That 20th-level Capstone power? That's like being happy your GM gave you a +35 Longsword vs. Dolphins... but wait! there's more... you can BREATH UNDERWATER!!!! give me a break.

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Fantasy Craft Scout
Defined as: Few endure the wilderness as casually as the Scout and none but he truly thrive. As comfortable atop the frozen waste of northern glaciers as the murky depths of swamp lakes, the Scout fears nothing in nature -- not weather or beasts, not even the threatening promise of empty night. He can live off the land almost indefinitely and employs wild, unpredictable tactics most "civilized" adventurers never even consider. Depending on your campaign, a Scout could be...

- A military forward reconnoitering ahead of a massive army
- A bounty hunter seeking escaped mages
- The only guide to have escaped a band of frost giants and their snowy mountain gauntlet
- A grizzled monster hunter stalking creatures of nightmare in dungeons and deep jungles
- A canny tunnel denizen using guerrilla warfare to protect a non-human enclave from folk incursions

You stand out away from the hustle-bustle of cities, taking advantage of terrain and finding strategy where others find impediment. Better yet, you extend many of your most powerful abilities to the rest of  your party, keeping them one step ahead in rough country.

CLASS FEATURES
Favored Attributes: Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Blend, Medicine, Notice, Resolve, Ride, Sneak, Survival, Tactics
Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier per level
Vitality: 9 + Con modifier per level
Starting Proficiencies: 4

CORE ABILITY
Trailblazer: Your presence ensures that everyone survives even the most hostile environments. Once per scene as a free action, you may temporarily grant your teammates 1 of your Terrain feats until the end of the scene.

CLASS ABILITIES
Stalker: At Level 1, each time you fail a Survival or Tactics check and don't suffer an error, you still succeed as long as the check DC (or your opponent's check result) is equal to or less than your Class Level + 20. If several grades of success are possible, you achieve only the lowest possible positive result. If you gain this ability for either skill from two or more classes, add together your levels in all classes granting the ability when determining its effect.

Rough Living: Your time in the wild has toughened you. At Level 2, you gain a +2 bonus to Defense, as well as with saves prompted by the environment. At Levels 11 and 19, these bonuses increase by an additional +2 (to +4 at Level 11 and +6 at Level 19).

Bonus Feat: At Levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19, you gain 1 additional Ranged Combat or Terrain feat.

Sneak Attack: At Level 4, you gain an additional die of sneak attack damage. At Levels 8, 12, 16, and 20, you gain another additional die of sneak attack damage.

Huntsman: At Levels 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, you may choose 1 of the following abilities. Each of these abilities may be chosen only once.

- Expertise: Choose one skill: Acrobatics, Athletics, Blend, Medicine, Notice, Resolve, Ride, Sneak, Survival, or Tactics. Taking 10 with this skill doesn't take twice as long and taking 20 takes only 10 times as long.
- Keen Senses: Your visual, hearing, and scent ranges increase by 20 ft.
- Killing Blow: It costs you 1 fewer action dice to activate a critical hit against an animal, elemental, fey, ooze, or plant (minimum 0).
- Low-Light Vision: You ignore the effects of dim and faint light.
- Master Handler: You're considered to have 5 additional ranks in Survival when training animals. This may cause you to exceed your maximum skill rank for these activities.
- Rough Riding: Your vehicle or mount ignores Speed penalties from terrain.
- Sprint: In combat, your Speed increases by 10 ft.
- Trail Signs: You suffer no penalties for Speed when making Track checks.
- Trophy Hunter: You can drop even the biggest game with a single attack. When you attack an animal, your threat range increases by 3.
- Turning: Your pleasant relationship with the natural world is... discretionary. Choose a Type from the following list: animal, elemental, fey, ooze, or plant. Once per combat you may Turn characters of this Type.

Master Tracker: You frequently have uncanny insight about your prey. At Level 10, once per session when you make a successful Track check, you also gain 1 clue about the target. At Level 20, you may use this ability twice per session.

Overrun: You know the first few seconds of any fight are critical. At Level 14, once per session at the start of combat, you may declare that you're "overrunning." While overrunning, if one of your attacks or a teammate's kills an opponent or knocks them unconscious, the attacker may immediately make an additional attack with the same weapon against another opponent. This continues until you and your teammates gain a combined number of additional attacks equal to your Class Level.

Comments: CLEARLY defined. Scouts are Wilderness Warriors. They thrive in the outdoors and are *deadly* ambush killers. What's more, is they made all of the other flavors of "3.x Ranger" possible as OPTIONS. You want a pet - pick the ability. And pets in Fantasy Craft are far more useful and powerful. You want spells? You're out of luck - it's covered by other class options. But nothing stops you from multi-classing to give you some Nature-magic. Otherwise there are a host of Specialties that give you the flavor of "nature lore" with mechanical benefits that let your Scout class really shine.

Another important distinction is that as a hunter, the Scout excels at ranged combat without sacrificing their melee skills people associate with "Rangers". How? Because they define Scouts as outdoors survivalist hunters, Range is what hunters use. BUT if you want to be good at melee - you get healthy amounts of Feats (which are FAR beefier than 3.x/PF) and you get Sneak Attack. Something that should be more the province of a professional hunter as much as an assassin. Further - in Fantasy Craft, the whole Two-Weapon Fighting thing is a bit different. Everyone gets 1-full actions per round, or 2-half-actions. So Two-weapon fighting a Style Feat that is uniform. Anyone can get it. Or if you want to dual-wield from the start, you can swing twice per-round with no penalty as long as you didn't move. Scouts are more inline with their stated concept vs. trying to be everything everyone wants in a Ranger - but those options are there too. Conversely you could start from another class and build towards a Scout if you want to emphasize those elements. Like all FC classes it clearly defines the class and stakes the mechanics on them in meaningful ways.

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I've never been fond of the Ranger, either conceptually or mechanically, so the FC Scout wins. However, what's this all about:

Quote from: tenbones;1141443- Turning: Your pleasant relationship with the natural world is... discretionary. Choose a Type from the following list: animal, elemental, fey, ooze, or plant. Once per combat you may Turn characters of this Type.

Turning, like a D&D cleric? What's the in-world explanation for that? The D&D cleric has holy powers, and they are castigating unholy creatures. We know this "makes sense" because we've seen it in Dracula movies. And I can see the rationale with animals; maybe the scout is "in tune with the animal kingdom" because we've seen that "make sense" in Crocodile Dundee and Attack of the Clones. But what is it about a scout that makes an ooze runaway in fear? Actually I can see this working with intelligent opponents. The fear would be the reputation of the hunter. Oberon the Fey King sees Cadmus the Fey Hunter and says "Screw this, I'm out of here!" But for the rest of that list, I'm drawing a blank.

This is one thing about the Crafty games that bugs me. For every eight ideas that are pure genius, there's one that leaves me scratching my head, like Quantum Cover, Insta-Disguise, Break Weapon with Bare Hands, or Never Knew I Knew Mandarin. But those are from SC, so maybe they fell by the wayside. Still, 8 to 1 is a better ratio than most games.

Quote from: Aglondir;1141676Turning, like a D&D cleric? What's the in-world explanation for that?

Whatever you want it to be. It's just an effect. Skin it however you like. My first guess is that it's meant to represent becoming so familiar with a particular type of creature that even when it's attacking you, you know what'll have a good chance of calming it down and getting it to leave you alone. Sure, you *could* just say that your connection to nature imbues you with some magical go-away power(and with the right background options, that could make sense), but . . . since the rest of the Scout stuff isn't magical, I seriously doubt that was the intent.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1141697Whatever you want it to be. It's just an effect. Skin it however you like. My first guess is that it's meant to represent becoming so familiar with a particular type of creature that even when it's attacking you, you know what'll have a good chance of calming it down and getting it to leave you alone. Sure, you *could* just say that your connection to nature imbues you with some magical go-away power(and with the right background options, that could make sense), but . . . since the rest of the Scout stuff isn't magical, I seriously doubt that was the intent.

Fair enough. One of my pet peeves is reliable in-world explanations for powers. Not so much realism-- "magic" or "the force" is fine. I would accept a number of explanations for how this power works, as long as the player puts some thought into it. "I have a cold iron weapon, which turns Fey" works. At any rate, it's a minor issue in an otherwise great class.

Love this thread. What's the next class?

It's probably going to have to be the Wizard/Mage and Cleric/Priest.

Which poses a bit of quandary - because at that point, that's where the only direct overlap between classes exists between these games.

Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Sorcerer do not have direct classes in Fantasy Craft, rather they're backgrounds that inform other classes. Which means if we go Wizard/Mage, Cleric/Priest - we're cracking open the Magic System... and I'd prefer we'd save those classes/systems for last so we can see how Feats and Skills work... because one of the biggest "issues" in 3.x is the Caster/Non-Caster issues.

If I choose not to do the Magic classes first...

That means we have to decide which classes get emphasis first. Obviously Pathfinder/D&D3.5 map to one another almost one-for-one. So I'll leave it to you guys:

1) Are you all more interested in me outlining the remaining Fantasy Craft classes that DO NOT map directly to D&D3.x and Pathfinder? Then do Skills/Feats. THEN do Magic classes/system? (This includes: Assassin, Captain, Courtier, Explorer, Keeper, Lancer and Sage).

2) Or do you want me to dive into the Magic classes that map to all three classes, then do #1 above after?

TBH, I've been thinking that a lot of the classes you've posted are hard to appreciate without delving into Feats, since they all seem to have a significant number of feats as a major feature. And sometimes a lot of their potential functionality is hidden behind those feats, like in the case with Scouts and pets. There's a great deal of stuff about classes in FC that seems to be tied to feats or subsystems that don't exist in D&D, like reputation or stuff like vitality and wound points, and differences in how sneak attacks work, etc. that are hard to understand without knowing what all that stuff is about.

It's a very salient point - especially as it pertains to Fantasy Craft since so much of the class system balance is based around Feats. And that's where most of these system-differences really add up.

But I don't want to lose the thread, so to speak on outlining the classes, because once we get into the Feats... that's when everyone will really see the differences in the systems which might take us down other rabbit-holes.

But I'm game to start looking at Feats and how they connect to non-magic classes if that's what everyone wants. We can circle back on Magic Classes and the Magic subsystems after. Then we can put it all together and do some direct build comparisons.

Thoughts?

Quote from: tenbones;1141924Thoughts?

I think that without delving into the feat system its already hard to see a lot of point to the FC classes you've already detailed.

In a sense they're all akin to the 3e Fighter... we know the fighter get feats, but unless we see what the feats can actually do we're not really looking at a class... we're looking at the framework of a class.

Actually, its the same for the 3e wizard and cleric too... those classes are mostly just empty containers that without the spell system have no meaning or ability to judge strengths or weaknesses objectively.

Honestly, you probably should have STARTED with the feat system before even getting into the FC classes as they all seem highly dependent upon them; that the classes are mostly feat containers with a few extras and not something like say, the 3e Monk, where nearly all of its features are contained within the class proper.

that's sound emergent logic.

In fact it's one of the problems I find a LOT of people new to Fantasy Craft have. D&D/PF have all their subsystems designed fairly discrete from one another (which is why it doesn't really fit their primary 20-lvl design structure). Whereas Fantasy Craft is *so* deeply connected, starting at Feats (which you're not wrong in your conclusion) seems unintituitive for the purposes of demonstrating these differences.

So I'm going to take a little bit from Column A, and Column B.

I'm going to get into the Feats - but i'm going to apply them specifically to the Fighter/Soldier and Rogue/Burglar so everyone can see what these functional differences are. We'll do a mini-build at the end. THEN we'll do casters. I think that is a better way to present it.

Sounds like a solid plan.

This isn't a beratement since I actually like the structure of it, but in some ways FC character building feels like 4E's. The 4E classes themselves had maybe 2-3 actual mechanics that defined them and everything else came down to the power and feat selections which your race and class helped define access to and which in turn defined your character far more than your handful of base class features ever did.

In essence, a FC class appears about as defining on its own as saying "sorcerer" in D&D... spell choice is EVERYTHING. They could be a blaster, an illusionist, a necromancer, a summoner, etc. depending on what they filled their limited spells known slots with. In this case though it's the feats that are filling in those details.

Sort of. I think FC does a very good job of defining its classes exactly as what they are and what they're designed to do.

What is not apparent to D&D players with any experience (especially) - is that the system outside of the class sub-system gives you an intense amount of options that do not necessarily detract from the class, but exist as a set of possibilities for both the GM and the players to explore those options contextual to their setting.

It's very very hard to do that in Pathfinder where the class definitions do not match the mechanical reality of the class itself. So when you look at the Ranger as a great example - in D&D/PF the class is trying to do like three or four different archetypes of what has evolved to mean "Ranger" from both D&D's previous editions, as well as MMO's and novels. It's not that any of these things are "incorrect* in terms of what they represent, but the problem is they're mutually exclusive in their mechanical expressions to one another - and worse, "balanced" by presumption against all other classes by design.

So you're cut-rate at being a Wilderness Fighter, Pet Class, Quasi-Druid, and Barbarian - but the class is designed to be all of those things. The Feat system in PF and D&D3.x don't do it any favors, nor do the inherent combat task-resolution systems. So what should be a perfectly fine concept, ends up being a mish-mash, because the class-design of D&D3.x and Pathfinder which emulated it, place a far far heavier design emphasis on the class sub-system rather than a clearer, more focused design - but a more robust set of optional systems for the players and GM to express their setting and powerful choices for those Fantasy Craft classes to directly interact with that system.

It's a very important distinction that really struck me - even as *I* was doing design-work for 3.x/PF - and it had been haunting me the whole time I was writing for Dragon and Goodman. I was constantly trying to bridge that gap and fighting editorial. When I saw Fantasy Craft, it was far more rigorous in its application of a lot of the design principles that were missing that I was only scratching at by comparison.

okay I'll start working on Feat write up. It's a fairly big task unto itself, like biting an elephant. I'm just deciding where I'm going to dig in first heh.

At least part of it's simple enough to explain. FC Feats fall into a number of different categories, and you'll notice that classes with Bonus Feats limit them to specific categories. Scout for example, gives bonus feats from the Ranged Combat and Terrain categories. Burglar, to choose the other class already covered, get their Bonus Feats from the Melee Combat and Covert categories. And you'll notice the Soldier - the closest analog to the Fighter - is fully defined and gets no bonus feats at all.

Other than that, just know that feat "trees" are never more than 3 deep, and there are none of those crap feats you only take to get to the good stuff. Even if you only go 1 or 2 feats into a particular tree, you'll get some good stuff that'll probably be useful forever. Yeah, of course you'll want to be familiar with how a particular subsystem works before taking a related Feat, but . . . if you know how D&D feats work, there aren't any surprises here. Meet prerequisites. Acquire feats. Get benefits.

Okay - so before we get into the Magic subsystems, and the classes that plug into them, we're diving into Feats.

Feats
Feats in D&D3e were a design concept that were intended to both improve and differentiate characters in mechanically meaningful ways. Pathfinder and Fantasy Craft, as derivatives of D&D3e, likewise use the Feat system, but Fantasy Craft approaches them with different assumptions and expression. Feats are usually acquired as part of the leveling progression, and scale by holding pre-requisites to attain ostensibly more powerful mechanical benefits. Introduced as a balancing feature is that some Classes acquire more Feats as a class-feature.


D&D 3.5 Feats
Feats are categorized by Types. These Types include General, Item Creation, and Meta-Magic. In practice, Feats will allow for differentiation from normal Class restrictions (or in some cases core rules themselves) by allowing exceptions to baseline rules. In other cases they modify the standard core rules along alternate mechanical paths that work in parallel with normal task-resolution. Most of the time Feats in D&D3.5 grant bonuses to various checks, or grants penalties to checks made against the PC.

As Feat acquisition in D&D3.5 generally happens by normal level progression for most classes, gained at every third-level, it places a premium on their importance in terms of expressing the mechanical specialization of ones PC. Whether this is emergent based on the game, or it's pre-determined (aka The Build) for optimization purposes - the Feat mechanics as written will drive PC's into very specialized channels of play, whose benefits are relative to the kind of game one plays. D&D3e introduced the idea that certain advanced Feats will have other Feats as pre-requisites. What emerged was that some Feats were pre-requisites to several Feats, which made them almost mandatory in order to engage in certain styles of play. This leads to a phenomenon of what is called a "Feat Tax" where in order to get to some mechanically previously assumed style of play, but now is gated behind mechanical penalties until certain Feats were acquired.

Here are a brief rundown on Feats and their effects.

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For the purposes of Feat analysis - we'll need to put Pathfinder's list up. Then we'll look at Fantasy Craft - which will be a bit more comprehensive, since Feats in Fantasy Craft plug into other aspects of the system that will require some explanation.

Then we'll look at some small character "Builds" and examine how each character operates mechanically under their respective systems. I'm open to suggestions with the following caveats:

1) No dedicated magic classes until we go over those Classes.
2) Let's try to cover the classes we've covered (which is pretty limited right now) - but if you have a concept idea and want me to try and model it, I'm game. I'll go over all the other Fantasy Craft classes (and Expert/Prestige) classes from the other systems after.