Quote from: GunslingerTry roleplaying dialogue for love relationships if you don't believe me (though I'm sure some players can, there's always somebody).

Uh, I have.  Both as GM and player.  Sometimes with voice and body language and everything (short of touching).  With other men doing the other side.  With both groups I role-play with.

In fact, I still wonder what the woman who drove by one night, as a GM and I were doing some fill-in role-playing outside after the game, thought of our body language, since we were talking romantic relationship dialog to each other in character at the time.

Quote from: John MorrowUh, I have.  Both as GM and player.  Sometimes with voice and body language and everything (short of touching).  With other men doing the other side.  With both groups I role-play with.

In fact, I still wonder what the woman who drove by one night, as a GM and I were doing some fill-in role-playing outside after the game, thought of our body language, since we were talking romantic relationship dialog to each other in character at the time.

Now that's immersion!  I'd even feel uncomfortable doing that with my loved ones.  

That's the fun of roleplaying for me.  You get to be someone you're not in a place that you are not.  Even Hawaii becomes home after a while.

I don't use relationships nearly as much or as well as I should.  I feel this is because I focus too much on the action.  Sequences of events, set dressing, moving things forward, stuff like that.  Working out the nuances of characters and their relations is something I find boring and difficult as far as prep-work goes, but endlessly fascinating and fun to play off of while playing.

I'm not sure how to get around this, other than to study at the feet of others who are experts at it.

Quote from: John MorrowBut the rules never quite get it completely right, do they?....And that actually illustrates my point, I think.

Yes. And it also illustrates the problem.  You are thinking of more closed and inflexibile rules, the crappy variety. And you are focusing on the limitations. The problems. Instead of the benefits. When you are digging out of prision a spoon is a really crappy shovel. But when you don't have a shovel the spoon is still pretty damn fabulous.

QuoteI, and most of the rest of the people in the groups I role-pay with, can just role-play through the social stuff better than any rules or deliberate choices could ever do for me. I don't need rules for that and when I have tried to use them, they just feel like they are getting in the way.

I've seen this. The "oh, we can just roleplay that", the "it's faster without the rules". Only, even when they are just learning the rules if you clock and pay attention to both ways it often isn't. The familiarity with the old has gotten you used to all the problems and you've started ignoring them.

And then when you actually get used to the rules and worked them in and personalized them and built on them? If for no reason it has given everyone something to focus on and a basis to work around. Well wow, they really roar.

QuoteThat goes back to something I've been saying for a while.  Players need rules for things they don't know how to do or can't do as well without the rules.  If they players already know how to do something well, then the rules are either (A) going to tell them what they already know or (B) disagree with what they already know which makes the rules either useless or worse than useless.

If you want every game to have the same tone. *shrug* But what if you want to have a different tone? Or play with different people. Or someone new joins. That's why there are different combat rules and such, to give a different tone. To simulate a different world. But some people seem to have this magical line in their head where it has to stop. Look at Abyssal Maw, the word "relationship" triggered this magical line for him that he didn't even realize that he was categorizing D&D 3e as Thematic. It's like that stereotypical "man" response where the word comes up and they freak out and all the baggage comes tumbling out and the brain shuts off. :rolleyes:  Then he goes around spouting about how I don't understand. :keke:

QuoteBy the way, I'm happy to hear that you are doing that for son and happy to hear he's doing well enough that you can do that for him.  It sounds like a great things to do.  Good luck with it but be careful about the assumptions you embed in your rules.

Thanks. And I certainly am. Plus the feedback loop to adjust them is pretty good and I'm pretty good at finding patterns because I'm able/willing to pay attention to and analyze what a lot of people overlook.

QuoteIn order for me to want to use rules, they need to improve on what I already do.  I think you know what that would mean for the "scope".

Sure do. But it seems you don't.  That part about different people all "knowing" but what they "know" is different (and contradictory)? Well when you write it out you can address that. It is a way to address problems, misunderstandings and such. Similar to cognitive behavioral therapy. All those 'rules' in your that you use to evaluate what happens, you pull them out explicitly and examine them. Tune them up, fix those illogical bits that you hadn't noticed before, and then turn it back into practice. Now you have a more solid base to work from and build on.

Or in this case the people that find themselves around a table have solid base to build on and reach further. Most helpful since the world of an RPG is more abstract and imagined than just our everyday lives, often dealing with worlds that we have no personal (or sometimes widely varying amounts or sources of experience).

Quote from: flyingmiceTo set the record straight, all my games have social skills, like Convince, Leadership,  Intimidation, and the like. These skills can be used to establish a relationship, but do nothing to maintain it, nor do they define it.

Sure you've got something to maintain them. Certainly at least in a keeping track sort of way. You don't have "write here in ink only" under those relationship blocks, right? :keke: And you don't have something that says a PC can only use Convince the first time they ever meet an NPC? Oh sure it's not really developed that much. Maybe you don't have NPC reaction tables or such with rules to use the skills to adjust the NPC's attitude towards the PC like that damn Thematic D&D does.

Quote from: flyingmiceI had no idea that was what we were talking about. I think I'm getting confused again, and had better back out. It's not smart to keep going when you don't know what you're actually talking about, especially if you think you know what's going on...

-clash

Oh so now this is a board where "not smart" isn't the modi operandi? Huh? :raise: Well damn it looks like a memo need to get circulated or something. :hehe:

Doube your negatives for double the pleasure.

EDIT: Oh, and thanks for the complement a ways back. Yeah I come at things 'sideways' and it can be a long trip to get to me but I do try make it worth the while.  Anyway, I'll catch you later since I just realized this thread has gone waaaay too long.

Quote from: RedFoxI don't use relationships nearly as much or as well as I should.  I feel this is because I focus too much on the action.  Sequences of events, set dressing, moving things forward, stuff like that.  Working out the nuances of characters and their relations is something I find boring and difficult as far as prep-work goes, but endlessly fascinating and fun to play off of while playing.

I'm not sure how to get around this, other than to study at the feet of others who are experts at it.

But how to do this? Maybe you could try to track down somebody and sit in their game and try to decode and decipher what they do and then go back and try to explain it to the people you play with.  If only our society had developed a way to convey experiences and ideas beyond the firsthand. Maybe even communicate them without being present. To give a structured list of directions and actions. To...well lets make up a word for this, call it 'instructions'. Or maybe 'rules'? :eek:

Quote from: blakkieBut how to do this? Maybe you could try to track down somebody and sit in their game and try to decode and decipher what they do and then go back and try to explain it to the people you play with.  If only our society had developed a way to convey experiences and ideas beyond the firsthand. Maybe even communicate them without being present. To give a structured list of directions and actions. To...well lets make up a word for this, call it 'instructions'. Or maybe 'rules'? :eek:

Nah. That's a lousy suggestion. I think advice is probably a much better idea.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: -E.Nah. That's a lousy suggestion. I think advice is probably a much better idea.

Cheers,
-E.

Yeah, and that's a totally different thing! Or not. One of those.

Quote from: blakkieYeah, and that's a totally different thing than instruction!

I see you've linked to the Thesaurus. That's actually not the appropriate reference here: what you really should be linking to is the *dictionary* (if you're not clear on how they're different, I'm sure you could find a reference somewhere that defines what words mean).

According to the dictionary, advice and instruction are, in fact, two different words with two different meanings.

But I would be okay with "instruction" -- my opinion was based on your use of the 'R' word.

Cheers,
-E.

Edited to add: I see you've edited your response to something a little less condescending.

Man, what?

Quote from: -E.But I would be okay with "instruction" -- my opinion was based on your use of the 'R' word.

Indeed. That big fucking brickwall built up. :rolleyes: You really need to join me and Clash on the other side where "rules" are "suggestions". (EDIT:well maybe he's not on the other side exactly, but he's somewhere in the neighbourhood)  It rocks over here! It helps bypass those 'authority' hangups. :pundit:

Quote from: blakkieSure you've got something to maintain them. Certainly at least in a keeping track sort of way. You don't have "write here in ink only" under those relationship blocks, right? :keke: And you don't have something that says a PC can only use Convince the first time they ever meet an NPC? Oh sure it's not really developed that much. Maybe you don't have NPC reaction tables or such with rules to use the skills to adjust the NPC's attitude towards the PC like that damn Thematic D&D does.

Well, you could do the same with a sheet of scrap paper and a pencil - not much of a "tool."

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceWell, you could do the same with a sheet of scrap paper and a pencil - not much of a "tool."

Yes and yes.  But it's there none-the-less.

Quote from: blakkieIndeed. That big fucking brickwall built up. :rolleyes: You really need to join me and Clash on the other side where "rules" are "suggestions". It rocks over here! It helps bypass those 'authority' hangups. :pundit:

It's not so much about my problems with authority (although, I must say -- I fight authority, authority always wins...)

It's more about poor models. I think relationships are too important and too multi-dimensional to be well modeled with RPG rules. I prefer GM-discretion guided by solid advice and maybe some kind of definitional framework (e.g. psychological limitations in games like Hero System and GURPS).

Game rules IME do a good job with physical interactions (combat, chases, drowning, falling), and a much worse job with modeling human interaction and psychology.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: -E.It's not so much about my problems with authority (although, I must say -- I fight authority, authority always wins...)

It's more about poor models. I think relationships are too important and too multi-dimensional to be well modeled with RPG rules. I prefer GM-discretion guided by solid advice and maybe some kind of definitional framework (e.g. psychological limitations in games like Hero System and GURPS).

Game rules IME do a good job with physical interactions (combat, chases, drowning, falling), and a much worse job with modeling human interaction and psychology.

Cheers,
-E.

Oh yeah. It's too important to use aids to stucture it. This is the same pathological crap as John. Oh you can't do it all exactly so you can't do some of it. :rolleyes:  Paralized by pefectionism. When the rest of the world comes to something complex they do things, develop methodologys to try sort thing out. Of course it isn't perfect but it's [done well] a step towards better communicating and organizing. So RPGs are suppose to be the opposite? The important and/or complex things we wing and the less so things we have a bunch of rules for?

What a load of horseshit.  It's like you think you have to turn off your brain when someone sets down rules in front of you.