Really, I'm not surprised at a class like Master Thrower existing. For example, for ranged combat, bows just seem to do it better. You don't need Quick Draw, really, for example, arrows are cheaper then axes, and their range is far longer.

But throwing stuff is cool in a big way, and there are throwing weapons, so...

All I know is that one of my arguments for the pros of PrCs' existance is that a knife thrower is at a real loss to an archer or a dude with a giant sword. It's not that there were serious pros and cons, one of which was damage - it was that throwing became downright prohibitive at some point especially compared to the subpar damage a knife thrower could do, then a PrC or new Feats to combat that were a good thing.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNo, sorry.  One last thing...I'd much rather be concentrating my time on playing the game, not basking in "endless choice" and wishing I could play the character I'd just tweaked.  That's a bit of a low blow, but really now.

You're not "concentrating on playing the game" if you're not learning how to improve your performance, whether mechanically or otherwise. You're just diddling around in bullshit dichotomies. "Clearly, if I attempt to make a wise choice mechanically, I am being inauthentic to my dreams."

Quote from: RedFoxY'know, if someone took the wrong feat and ends up regretting its fuck-uselessness, the DM can always just let them change the damn thing.

I dunno, I'm getting a strong rules-lawyer vibe here.  There's nothing wrong with amateur car-building, or what-have-you.  I think the core-only halfling axe-thrower's pretty keen, myself.

There's no backstory or clear concept for it other than a combat role, and it does that combat role poorly. Why do you think it's "pretty keen"?

I'm not being a rules-lawyer here, I'm trying to crack this idiotic dichotomy Ian's got in his head and that you're buying into as well - that somehow, sucking mechanically is a more authentic form of existence for PCs than seeking to be competent and skilled.

QuoteThen again, I tend to play single-class builds and make non-optimal decisions all the time.  I love stuff like Skill Focus (Diplomacy).  *shrug*  To each their own.

Do you just shove pawns around in chess too?

I dislike this kind of thinking because it treats characters as idiots who don't understand how their world works, and who don't take their own survival seriously. Not every PC has to be a copy of something from the CharOp boards, but PCs should be like real people who plan to get involved in dangerous situations by making choices that increase their effectiveness at doing things relevant to their survival. This is more proper than randomly selecting feats because you, the player, don't really understand the system so you just grab a random bunch of stuff that seems neat.

Thanatos02> Yes, exactly. Throwing really sucks in the core. A halfling axe-thrower using core-only feats and progressing as Fighter 20 with a bunch of bad feats taken at the wrong time is basically a sign that you don't know much about the mechanics of D&D, don't care to learn much about the mechanics, and would therefore probably more enjoy a game that doesn't have those mechanics.

I love clerics.

I love dwarves.

Oddly enough, this means I love dwarven clerics.  Especially the big-semi-stereotyped-bash-shit-with-warhammers dwarven clerics.  Pump Strength, Con, and Wisdom; don't dump-stat Charisma.  Screw Dexterity...  He's a cleric.  He's got armor to cover his ass.

-O

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThere's no backstory or clear concept for it other than a combat role, and it does that combat role poorly. Why do you think it's "pretty keen"?

Dude, the concept is just to be a hip dancing gangster like the Axe Gang dudes from Kungfu Hustle, its sort of a funny but cool concept. I mean how many of us haven't been inspired by a movie when building characters or guilty of ripping off a character concept? I know I've built Jayne Cobb in at least a dozen systems by now.

Its not a fully realized character but he stated pretty clearly what his concept was: Hip Dancing Halfling Axe Gang gangster. I agree he should probably try optimizing that as much as possible unless there aren't going to be too many knock down fights in the game.

Anyway, you've convinced me to try an Utter Cold Necromancer the next time I get a chance to play a suitably high level game.

Furthermore, I've been convinced by a thread of Redfox's on the Violent Violet Vomitorium to play some RPGA modules, so I've built a Cabal of Shadows faction: Tiefling Artificer that has me rather excited. I'm also keen on this House Lyrander Marshal that I've built with a +21 Diplomacy bonus and some fun looking buffs. I'm planning on building both a Warlock and a Dreadnecromancer now so I have a wealth of options incase I have enough time to play multiple modules, or in case the group I get already has an Artificer, or a Warlock or whatever.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineA halfling axe-thrower using core-only feats and progressing as Fighter 20 with a bunch of bad feats taken at the wrong time is basically a sign that you don't know much about the mechanics of D&D, don't care to learn much about the mechanics, and would therefore probably more enjoy a game that doesn't have those mechanics.

This is what Pundit calls being a Swine, right?  I'm not playing your favorite game the way it "should" be played, so I can't possibly be enjoying it.  Am I brain damaged, too?  You're telling a rank noob that he's not playing the game "right", so he shouldn't be playing it at all.

I was completely sincere when I stated last night that I appreciated your input.  Now I don't.  You're apparently way, way deep into your little world, and I'm not convinced it's the same one that other players share.  Enjoy drawing up your hypothetical characters in there.

!i!

Come on, everyone. Let's not ruin a good thread.

For the most part, a lot of classes are pre-built for you. Rangers, Paladins, and Rogues for example, already have the most important parts. Rage and a d12 go pretty far with Barbarians. With Sorcerers, you only need to make the right choice once, and there are a lot of them, so even if Sorcerers arn't as versitile, you can be pretty assured of having a character with a base level of awesomeness.

Fighters? Well, not really. At the very worst, your Fighter is going to have a totally full BaB, access to any armor he can find, and pretty good HP.  This is pretty much the base level of need for a Fighter to contribute at a bare minimum and in a lot of games, this is ok. Anything you select is generally going to be at least minimally successful, and that's ok.  

I think the problem, to Pseudophedrine here (if I may), is that no matter how many of those Feats you take as your cool Halfling axe-thrower, you're operating at that base minimum.  The best you've got really is an Attack Bonus that's a little higher then your base, and poor damage with modifiers that are on the low end of the spectrum. Anyone can and will outperform you  at everything, all the time, even if you're not deadweight and, chances are, your cool concept deserves more then that. (And I think it does, really, because it's really neat.)

Now, you don't want to spend forever trying to find the 'best' Feats, because playing is more interesting to you, and I wholly sympathise. I like options, but I don't like that it's hard to make a thrower that's on an even keel with the most basic and generic kit in D&D. (Guy with a big sword that hits things in exactly the same way, every round.) Of course, with a little effort (on someone elses part, I might add), you can have the exact same concept but it'll perform a lot better.

Maybe that really doesn't matter at all to you. But a characters mechanical competancy being at a vaguely even level to facilitate teamwork is, for better  or worse, a core of the games principles. If you're not interested in numbers, but want to play with your friends, you lose very little (if anything) by letting your friendly peeps at therpgsite give you a hand with the mechanics.

I don't know if this is your mindset, but I realize that, out there, there's some mislead belief that using PrCs and paying attention to your Feat selection indicates a problem player or some kind of bloat. It doesn't and isn't. It's there because Core doesn't facilitate all perfectly reasonable concepts evenly.

Quote from: Thanatos02If you're not interested in numbers, but want to play with your friends, you lose very little (if anything) by letting your friendly peeps at therpgsite give you a hand with the mechanics.

Which is what I did ask for.  What I didn't expect was being told that I wasn't enjoying the game and that I'm apparently not qualified to play it.  That's just been weird shit.

I do appreciate your input.  That's how I learn to play the game, or at least how some other people play it.  Thanks.

!i!

I'd love to help more, but at best, I possess the Complete Line*, and that's at home. (while I'm not)

*At the most basic level, at my table, I kind of feel that the Complete books are the last generic books that I allow without special consideration. Because I've got my own campaign world, complete with specific PrCs and Feats, I prefer to allow those to other campaign or environmental specific abilities. Dessicating, for example, would never fly.

Quote from: mrlostDude, the concept is just to be a hip dancing gangster like the Axe Gang dudes from Kungfu Hustle, its sort of a funny but cool concept. I mean how many of us haven't been inspired by a movie when building characters or guilty of ripping off a character concept? I know I've built Jayne Cobb in at least a dozen systems by now.

Its not a fully realized character but he stated pretty clearly what his concept was: Hip Dancing Halfling Axe Gang gangster. I agree he should probably try optimizing that as much as possible unless there aren't going to be too many knock down fights in the game.

His build doesn't realise that concept in any particularly strong way. It's neither particularly mobile, nor particularly dangerous. The Axe Gang, if memory serves, were mostly mooks, so if that's what he wants, that's what he's building.

Quote from: mrlostAnyway, you've convinced me to try an Utter Cold Necromancer the next time I get a chance to play a suitably high level game.

I'm gonna use one as the villain of an Aztec/Incan style civilisation and the Big Bad of the entire campaign in my pirates game. It's a really cool build.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhich is what I did ask for.  What I didn't expect was being told that I wasn't enjoying the game and that I'm apparently not qualified to play it.  That's just been weird shit.

No one said either to you, you fucking ingrate. I did say, however, that if you don't like some of the core mechanics of D&D, you should play a game with mechanics you do like rather than whining bizarrely about how "feat bloat" and PrCs are ruining the game (how the fuck would you know? You're a self-proclaimed "newbie" who doesn't doesn't seem to own any non-core books).

I also said you were crappy at building D&D characters, which is just self-evident from the build you did post. Being crappy at building D&D characters doesn't "disqualify" you from playing - it just means you're not very good at playing the game.

You know, just tonight I recognised who you are.  I kept thinking that I should know you from somewhere else, and I realised that I do.  So now it makes sense why you post the way you do.  Have fun, man.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou know, just tonight I recognised who you are.  I kept thinking that I should know you from somewhere else, and I realised that I do.  So now it makes sense why you post the way you do.  Have fun, man.

!i!

Well, that's awfully paranoid. I don't even know who the hell you are, let alone have some secret identity to harass you.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI've never heard of such a thing.  Perhaps this is the topic for another thread, though. :deflated:

Wiki says that they aren't, but googling for "throwing kukri" throws up a lot of results.  I've seen a Gurka throw a kukri as part of a demo years ago, but it might have been a specially balanced one designed to impress credulous overpriviliged young boys

I've learned something new.  I guess it makes sense in that you can throw anything, but some things are balanced better for the feat.  After all, regular knives and axes aren't meant for throwing either.  Heck, my son still marvels at my prowess at throwing a weed puller, a trick honed from years of fanatic weeding of the yard.  Basically, you work with a tool long enough, sooner or later you develop a sense of the balance and dynamics of the object.

!i!

There's always the 'Throw Anything' feat.

FWW, I find the halfling axe-thrower build perfectly acceptable.

The smaller weapon size, definitely drives some people nuts. I have a friend who goes on and on about how hard it is to make a small sized warrior character "work", just because the weapon size is always going to be around the d4 or d3 range. At lower levels (4 and under) this is bound to be painful.

The reason is, you have defined a role as a battler, and yet you will end up with a bit of a struggle fulfilling it just due to size restraints. 3.0 was more forgiving that way.

Consequently, often the smaller guys will avoid direct melee roles, and concentrate on being sneaks, casters, and "generalists".
 
And yet, I love playing my gnome barbarian wearing double claw-gauntlets.

There's a two step process to any build-fix once it's already in play.

1) Identify your needs
2) cover them with gear.
3) Plan for the Future with Feats*

That's what gear is for, really. So if the problem is "You don't hit often enough", you need magical weapons. If the problem is "you don't do enough damage", you need to start stocking up on things like Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Belt of Giant Strength, potions of Bulls strength (in the short term, this is your best solution). As a monk, you should also look into amulets of natural armor and possible some bracers and rings of protection.

Otherwise, eh. It's just D&D. Don't sweat it.


* My campaign allows "free respec" of all non-dependent feats upon attainment of any level. So as long as you don't have a Prestige class or ability or other feat that is depending on a feat, you can pretty much just switch it out and nobody says anything.