Quote from: jrientsNot a gauntlet or amulet, a bandolier.

Not a bad idea - something storing x number of throwing axes, granting them a various bonus to hit and damage if the axe has been in the bandolier a round, said bonus only lasting for the next attack made with it...

Cross with quiver of Ehlonna to allow it to store more throwing axes, I think.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaEver seen "Kung Fu Hustle"?  Remember the Axe Gang?  I suddenly have this image of gang of hipster, axe-wielding halflings taking over a town, choreographed moves and all.

!i!

Sounds like bards - using their perform (axe dance) skill to give each other bonuses to intimidate.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhen I was playing AD&D, it was either Half-Elf Ranger or Half-Elf Bard (the Bard class being a variant from an issue of The Dragon).  Always the same thing.  Admittedly, the Half-Elf Ranger was pretty much the best of all worlds.

Now that I've begun to venture into 3.0/3.5, I've stumbled onto my new favorite build -- The Halfling Axe-Slinger.  Dig on this.

As a Halfling, you get a +1 racial bonus on thrown weapons, and a +1 size bonus.  Be sure to make DEX your highest attribute (at least 13), but don't slack off on STR.  Take the Fighter class and choose the two feats Point Blank Shot for +1 and Quick Draw.  Arm yourself with a bandolier or holsters of throwing axes.  At 1st Level, you can snatch an unreadied axe and throw it short range with a +4 to-hit mod.  At 2nd Level, take the Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe) feat, and you're up to a +6 to-hit.  At 3rd Level, take the Rapid Fire feat to make two thrown axe attacks at -2/-2 for a total of +5/+5 to hit or just one at +7.  At 4th Level, take the Weapon Specialisation (Throwing Axe) feat to add +2 damage per attack at either +8 to hit or +6/+6.  At 6th Level, you add another attack through normal advancement for a total of either +10/+5 to hit or +8/+8/+5, all with +2 damage.  For feats, probably take the Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes feats.  In fairly short order, your Halfling Fighter becomes a flurry of flying axes, and all of this without yet incorporating your DEX bonus.  Be sure to drift from town to town, challenging unruly thugs in order to gain experience.

Now, I'm a newbie, so feel free to tell me where I might be mistaken, or how I might heighten to lethality of this character build.  Has anyone already come up with this?

!i!

You should PrC into Master Thrower, which will give you class abilities that replicate several of your feat choices, IIRC. I forget if it's in Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer though. Also, buy magical axes with the returning ability, and spec each one to do different kinds of energy damage - shocking, flaming and icy axes - to overcome DR and boost your damage.

Get the fuck out.  There's actually a prestige class called "Master Thrower"?  Oh, mama. :rolleyes:

The boomerang axes would be a nice touch, though.  I suppose once the game has entered the "magic weapon phase", that'd be the way to go.  I can imagine having three or four of them and just keeping them going through the air like a juggler with an invisible partner.

!i!

Found it. It's in Complete Warrior, pg 58. The pre-reqs are BAB +5, 4 ranks of Sleight of Hand, and Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Weapon Focus for a thrown weapon. In exchange, you get Quick Draw for free, Evasion, a bunch of cool tricks, Snatch Arrows and Improved Crit for any throwing weapon you've got weapon focus in, as well as full BAB. And that's in five levels. It's pretty wicked.

Hunh.  So someone decided to fast-track what I was planning on doing with the Fighter class alone.  Granted, I was thinking it was going to take a darned long while to work in tasty feats like Shot on the Run, Evasion, Deflect Arrows, and maybe Far Shot.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHunh.  So someone decided to fast-track what I was planning on doing with the Fighter class alone.  Granted, I was thinking it was going to take a darned long while to work in tasty feats like Shot on the Run and maybe Far Shot.

!i!

So the only downside is you gotta wait awhile for Quick Draw.  On the upside, you get to do that cool Jack Burton "snatch the axe outta the air and toss it back" thing.

Instead of Quick Draw, maybe just take Weapon Focus earlier.

EDIT: Or hell, you're going to be a Fighter, so you've got the Feats to burn.  Take Improved Initiative.

EDIT the 2nd: Though passing up Precise Shot when you can get it is painful.  That feat is ultra-necessary for any ranged monkey.

Book of 9 Swords has a prestige class, designed for Warblades IIRC, that turns any weapon you throw into a boomerang.

Okay, this discussion broaches a criticism that I've long heard about 3.0/3.5 -- Feat Bloat.  Feel free to redirect me if you think I'm derailing this thread, but it seems to me that there are a lot of Prestige Classes out there that were written by people who lacked the patience or imagination to work within the established character classes. I mean, this is the sort of thing that my friends and I used to do with 1st ed AD&D, creating variant classes like monks with better ACs and HtH damage and fewer restrictions, samurai who inexplicably deal incredible amounts of damage, etc.

Take my Halfling Axe-Slinger, for example.  I'm rather proud that, after stumbling upon the formula with my Halfling Monk on the PbP here, I figured out a way to make it work and optimise it within the existing rules.  Prestige Classes seem to be short-cuts that bend the rules (and sometimes break them?).  Inside of 6 levels of the Fighter Class, my build pretty much has what the Master Thrower PrC begins to offer only at 5th Level, and the PrC only seems to throw in the freebies of Evasion, Quick Draw, etc. to account for lack of planning or sacrifice at the start.  My character build is a focused and probably self-taught devotee of a very particular style of fighting right from the start at 1st Level, while the PrC proposes a later specialisation, seemingly by means of joining a guild or society of like-minded throwing artists.  Bah, I say.  I need no such flimsy excuses for my power-gaming.

Oh, and Sleight of Hand as a prerequisite to join the PrC?  Like my axe-slinger is going to want to hide his axes? I think not.  He wears them proudly, like a challenge to lesser beings, not like a cowardly sneak-thief.  Besides, I'd recommend spending those skill points on Perform (Dance) so he really can do the disco axe dance from "Kung Fu Hustle" after another successful challenge.  This character build is becoming so badass I just have to play him. :haw:

!i!

Er, no offense dude, but he's actually kind of weak. You're blowing a lot of feats to basically do 1d4+Str in damage a few times a round at high levels. A simple human fighter with a comp longbow and a greatsword - the most generic kit a 3.5 fighter can have - would fuck him in the mouth for breakfast. He'd outrange and out damage him in shooting, and would deal significantly more damage in close quarters.

There are two things Master Thrower gives you that you can't get on your own. The first is not having to spend a feat on Quickdraw (which is a shitty feat if you have to spend one of your feat slots on it, fighter bonus feats or no). The second is the various cool abilities and tricks that are only available as Master Thrower class features. Even with Master Thrower, he's not going to be great, but he won't be as bad. He'll have his niche, and be able to do a few things that a better equipped fighter or a warblade couldn't.

To be more constructive, if you wanted a cool halfling axe thrower who can dish out the damage, I'd take one level in Scout, two levels in Fighter, seven levels in Scout, then five of Master Thrower and then more Scout (or whatever you want). You want 13+ Dex, and Str as high as possible.

Featwise, here's a sample feat tree that gives you lots of gravy:
1st: Point Blank Shot
2nd bonus Fighter feat: Brutal Throw (from Complete Adventurer)
3rd: Weapon Focus (Throwing Weapon of Choice)
3rd bonus Fighter feat: Precise Shot
6th: Rapid Shot
6th bonus Scout feat: Dodge
9th: Mobility
10th bonus Scout feat: Shot on the Run
11th Master Thrower bonus feat: Quickdraw
12th: Power Attack
15th: Power Throw (from Complete Adventurer)
15th bonus Master Thrower: Snatch Arrows

Your two feats at 18th level are open to whatever else you want. This char scoots around using Shot on the Run to get in close with skirmish damage, then Power Attacks with his axe for a reasonable amount of damage and backs off, using his enhanced movement to stay out of range of the baddies.

I'd also switch the weapons to Kukris. They only do 1d3 for smalls, but they crit on an 18-20. Once you get Critical Throw from Master Thrower, that becomes crit on a 15-20, which doubles most of your bonus damage (skirmish damage isn't). If you go this way, take Power Critical as one of your 18th level feats.

For MT tricks, I'd take Trip Shot, Doubletoss and Weak Spot, in that order.

Anyhow, that'd make your character a lot stronger, while preserving the core idea of a self-sufficient halfling axe thrower.

Am I belying my old school AD&D roots when I tell you that I have difficulty looking practically past 5th or 6th Level? :deflated: Admittedly, your variant on the build I proposed is a better power build at higher levels.  But waiting until 11th Level for Quick Draw?  It'd be months before I'd even begin to realise my character concept.  And, still, Sleight of Hand?  Please.  I'd be begging the GM to let me trade that out for something less ignoble (like Perform (Dance)!).  And trading out the tomahawk for the kukri?  You speak blasphemy, man.

Does it also show that, ultimately, I prefer style over substance when I try to powergame?

!i!

Dude, you don't _need_ Quickdraw until 11th level (actually a few levels later because of the Scouts 3/4 BAB, but I don't want to do the math right now). Until then, you've got at most two attacks in a full attack action. You can hold two axes in your hands, and draw a new one every move action as part of moving. You only need Quickdraw when you've got more than two attacks in your full attack action.

Sleight of Hand is just the skill of being really dexy with your hands. It's good for hiding weapons all over your body. It's good for sneaking your axes into places you're not supposed to have them.

And kukris are wicked. They're these brutal curved knives used by Gurkhas from Nepal for just about everything from fighting to carving. They're totally in line with the whole "wild hunter" angle.

As for low-level play, this build actually has quite a smooth power development between 3rd and 16th. At 6th level, you have as many feats as a 6th level fighter would. Your BAB is only a few points behind them, and you're actually dealing more damage thanks to your skirmish damage.

Ultimately, there isn't really a dichotomy between style and substance. The trick is to use the mechanics to help you realise your concept, rather than fight against them by sticking to one class, or picking suboptimal feats or anything. It's like being a really good painter in that the technical skill supplements, rather than replaces, the creative vision.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineDude, you don't _need_ Quickdraw until 11th level (actually a few levels later because of the Scouts 3/4 BAB, but I don't want to do the math right now). Until then, you've got at most two attacks in a full attack action.

Hrm.  My read of Quick Draw was that it allowed you to ready a weapon and attack with it in a single action without needing to spend a move action.  Admittedly, my understanding of the breakdown of a combat turn in 3.0/3.5 is imperfect.

QuoteSleight of Hand is just the skill of being really dexy with your hands. It's good for hiding weapons all over your body. It's good for sneaking your axes into places you're not supposed to have them.

Oh, I realise all that, but there you go again, suggesting my Halfling axe-slinger is some sort of chicken-shit sneak thief, who wouldn't brandish his tomahawks openly and proudly.  Fie on thee.  Fie, I say.

QuoteAnd kukris are wicked.

[/i]Granted.  I'm quite familiar with them, but not as throwing weapons (no matter what the book says).  Tell you what -- I'll meet you halfway and the Halfling carries a kukri as a hold-out weapon.

QuoteUltimately, there isn't really a dichotomy between style and substance. The trick is to use the mechanics to help you realise your concept, rather than fight against them by sticking to one class, or picking suboptimal feats or anything. It's like being a really good painter in that the technical skill supplements, rather than replaces, the creative vision.

Now, see?  This is where we begin to broach the topic of what I called "Feat Bloat".  In order to create the character you described, I have to search out this extra book (two books?) that I don't have in order to work around these "suboptimal" standard feats to which I, and ostensibly every other D&D player out there, have access.  It's like the old days when someone would come to the table with a crazy, suped-up character they rolled up from an unofficial variant class that appeared in the latest issue of The Dragon magazine.  Or like when some jackass would show up at the table with one of WW's latest splat books.

I mean, in order to really optimise my character, why don't I write up the Prestige Class "Halfling Axe-Slinger", make up some super-specific feats that pump up the crit capabilities of a thrown axe, and call it good?  Yes, I realise that it wouldn't be official, but it's like the crazy-ass Spiked Chain Fighter everyone was on about a year or two back -- a PrC built specifically to optimise a single weapon.  And being loathe to dig up esoteric feat lists to nit-pick my character into top form doesn't strike me as fighting against the mechanics.

!i!

D&D 3.5 puts a lot more character customisation into the game, because character customisation is fun for most people. If you aren't interested in fine-tuning your character, discovering new feats and PrCs that give him new powers, you're not really getting the full 3.5 experience. That doesn't mean buying every supplement out there, but the Complete series is good value for money because of the large number of options for characters packed in.

As well, because D&D has a large, elaborate system of mechanics all interacting with one another, learning how to properly use the system is key to the play experience. It's also fun as heck once you do finally understand it. Once again, the comparison is to any other skill - learning a skill at first sucks, until you get good in it, and you enjoy the internal goods to the practice (the feeling of competence, the pride in a job well done, etc.)

Part of learning how the system works is learning that yes, there actually are better and worse choices. These better and worse choices don't force you to imitate a select number of builds (people who slavishly imitate a build usually do so because they don't understand the system all that well), but they do shape your choices. Learning how to take these materials and reconcile them with your concept is part of the challenge involved in mastering the system.

These are basically the differences on a structural level between 3.x and 2nd. If you don't learn to appreciate the position 3.x takes on them, you're just going to be happier playing 2nd ed. If that's the case, then don't lay down in the Procrustean bed. Just dust off your copy of Birthright or Planescape and get to it.