On the subject of Necromancers, there's the 'Master Specialist' - I don't have my copy on me, but it basically gives you more spells/day and other bonuses for whatever school of magic you're specializing in.

Edit: And I forgot to say that this is from the Complete Mage book.

Remember this thread:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129 Redfox?

Quote from: KUttercold Assault Necromancer (Wizard)
The ultimate goal is to cast spells with the Cold Subtype that do half negative energy damage, while you and all your undead minions are immune to cold and healed by negative energy damage. Basically, this is done with Energy Substitution[cold] (a prereq for Lord of the Uttercold) and the feat Lord of the Uttercold. Then you put up Walls of Fire(uttercold) and you and all your minions dance around in them like Homer Simpson at the American Embassy regaining all your hit points every round and inflicting real evocation-style damage on your enemies. It’s hilarious. You can burn lots of feats and be a blaster mage at high levels, or take Beckon the Frozen to get cold-subtyped undead with Summon Undead that you heal with uttercold, but the essential build is two feats (though you are required to be undead or take Tomb-tainrted Soul if you want in on the fun).

For people who like numbers, look at your favorite Evocation modified by a resonable amount of Sudden or Rod-based Metamagic(or even vanilla metamagic). Then imagine your cold-immune undead like Skeletons or cold-Subbed Zombies like Frost Giants taking 1/2th of that damage each round as healing. A simple thought exercise is the 10th level Wizard with a vanilla Empowered Cold-subbed Fireball: average damage to your enemies is 15d6 (52.5 points of damage), with a save for half, and an average of 26 points of healing for every one of your minions. Makes Inflict look like crap, right?  

Now, lets play this excercise with a real blaster mage:  A 12th level Sorcerer with the feats from Races of the Dragon that drop metamagic costs and speed metamagic and a Rod-Maximised, Twinned Fireball: a flat 120 points of damage with a save for half and a flat 60 points of healing. Thats not even counting a once per day Sudden Empower for an extra 10d6 (35 damage, save for half, and an extra 17 points of healing).

Even if you don't want to be a blaster mage or don't want to sling together complex battle plans involving Walls of Fire(uttercold) to heal your minions and hurt your enemies, the ability to cast a single Wall of Fire after every combat to heal all your minions and perhaps yourself is an invaluable Necromantic aid.

Basically your a nasty wizard blaster rather than lord of the dead. I don't like them that much. I mean why go to the trouble really?  Then again what do I know, I've never gotten to play one *shrug* and wall spells are good for battlefield control.

Ah, that thread.

But he mentioned surrounding yourself with awesome undead shitkickers.  I want to know more about that.  Blasty-magics aren't the fun part of necromancy.  If I wanted that, I'd be an Evoker or warmage (or whatever that class is called that's a walking artillery platform).

Quote from: RedFoxAh, that thread.

But he mentioned surrounding yourself with awesome undead shitkickers.  I want to know more about that.  Blasty-magics aren't the fun part of necromancy.  If I wanted that, I'd be an Evoker or warmage (or whatever that class is called that's a walking artillery platform).

Yeah I got no idea on that one, seems like your feats are spent on your blasty goodness rather than on the Corpse Crafter feats that would make your undead into little kill-fuck soulshitters.

I keep thinking a Master of Shrouds might be cool too considering the fun of having insubstantial undead minions hiding in pillars and stuff.

Quote from: RedFoxAh, that thread.

But he mentioned surrounding yourself with awesome undead shitkickers.  I want to know more about that.  Blasty-magics aren't the fun part of necromancy.  If I wanted that, I'd be an Evoker or warmage (or whatever that class is called that's a walking artillery platform).

You're using the area-effect spells for two reasons. The first yes, is to blast your enemies. The second is that undead are _healed_ by negative energy damage, and many are immune to cold. So your wall of fire (uttercold) is draining the lifeforce of your foes, and healing your devourer face-mashers and your twelve-headed hydra skeletons at the same time. The Dread Necromancer has to rely on charnel touch to heal his goons, which makes it harder to keep them alive, especially since charnel touch does crap damage.

That means it's harder to keep alive low HD goons, since you've got to heal them all individually, and it's harder to keep alive high HD goons because you can't heal nearly as much damage as gets dished out at higher levels.

It's worth pointing out as well, that Uttercold Assault Necromancy requires two feats, both of which can be gotten as bonus feats in a straight Specialist Necro 20 build, leaving plenty of room for corpse-crafting feats. In exchange for those two feats, you drastically boost the effectiveness of both your character and his undead goons.

Well Pseudo, you've obviously played this character more than either of us and have more experience.  So mind if I pick at you with some questions?

• Do you think you could share a "Lord of the Undead Hordes" type build you think would rock?
• Including maybe strategies for how to do it?  Hopefully not too one-trick pony-ish (as those optimized builds sometimes are).
• Where do I find the feats and such to build one of these Skeletor guys?

Well, I've frequently enjoyed various Fighter/Rogue combinations to make a good tactical combatant. Generally, I don't lose too much but I do get a lot of great options. Bluff for feints, Hide/Move Silently, Spot, and Listen plus Climb is a class skill for both. I lose some HP, and my skills arn't anywhere near an actual Rogue, but they still beat straight warrior classes in a lot of cases.

Plus, Sneak Attack and the like. This, I've found, is one of the better multi-class combinations.

I remember one game where I went all out trying to build an effective Gish. (Fighter/Mage) In order to get the most milage possible, I think it looked something like Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 3/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1(2?)/Eldrich Warrior 7(6?)/Archmage 5.

But my DM wouldn't let me take Human Paragon because he thought it was racist(?) in the campaign world, and he bailed out of the game early, so I ended up looking like Fighter 1/Wizard 4 and just being kind of lame and useless.

This was before the Duskblade (which I still haven't seen, actually), and I remember being full of ire at the lack of options for Fighter/Wizards though Eldrich Warrior is ok when you can get it. I would have upped the Hit Die to d8, allowed light armor casting, not knocked a level of spellcasting off the first level, and... that's it really.

Quote from: RedFoxWell Pseudo, you've obviously played this character more than either of us and have more experience.  So mind if I pick at you with some questions?

• Do you think you could share a "Lord of the Undead Hordes" type build you think would rock?
• Including maybe strategies for how to do it?  Hopefully not too one-trick pony-ish (as those optimized builds sometimes are).
• Where do I find the feats and such to build one of these Skeletor guys?

Necro isn't my specialty, but I do know the arcane system reasonably well. I'll do my best to help. I'll try and keep this simple by sticking to two main books - Complete Mage and Libris Mortis, with a few dribs and drabs from other books.

Ok, first, the char. I'd go necro 3 / master specialist 10 as the basic build, with the last 7 levels adjusted to taste (probably pale master for this specific build). Use the Master Specialist Expanded Knowledge to gank Desecrate and some of the other sweet divine necromancy spells. If your DM holds to the opinion that Expanded Knowledge only applies to your own spell list, then take Arcane Disciple from Complete Arcane to get access to the "Evil" domain. You'll never cast Summon Monster IX, but it's another easy way to get access to Desecrate.

Race-wise, I'd start off human and become immune to negative energy ASAP. You can either do this by blowing the bonus human feat to get Tomb-Tainted Soul, or by becoming a necropolitan. I'd say get Tomb-Tainted Soul, since master specialist levels will give you a lot of the bonuses (at least temporarily) without making you lose a level.

For special class features, I'd take Focused Specialist from Complete Mage. I'd drop enchantment, illusion and transmutation.

For feats, I'd take:

Tomb-Tainted Soul (1st)
Energy Substition (cold) (bonus 1st)
Lord of the Uttercold (3rd)
Craft Wondrous Item (6th)

Use Craft Wondrous Item to make items that allow you control more HD of undead. I'm high and don't have access to my books, so you'll have to hunt around for such an item, or talk your DM into letting you make one.

I'd also consider Heighten Spell, Sculpt Spell and Empower Spell eventually.

Really, the most important thing to keep in mind is just to avoid animating humanoid skeletons and zombies.

Zombies:

Keep in mind that zombies keep all their movement modes (like flying and burrowing), all their natural attacks, and a decent BAB (you double their racial HD, then take half their new total hit dice in BAB). Zombies are more likely to hit than skeletons are for that reason.

What you want to do with your zombies is get forms with really good grappling capabilities and use them to grapple foes as they approach. Bonus points if the zombies grapple them while they're both trapped in an Uttercold effect (like a wall of "fire" or an "acid" fog). As a good low-level suggestion, large monstrous centipede zombies are wicked. At fourth level, you can have four of them under your control using just command undead. They get dex draining poison, a good grapple check, and they can climb fast to get foes in hard to reach places. Plus, once they're grappling, the whole "Only one standard action a round" thing doesn't suck as much.

Skeletons:

Skeletons are good because they get a full round of actions. You should therefore make skeletons of things you want to get full rounds of actions. This means things with a full attack action that gives you multiple attacks because of its race. Hydras are a classic, the more heads the better. Dig through the MM for other good suggestions. Skeletons are also pretty good ranged attackers. Arrow demon skeletons (MM3) are amazing, since somehow most of the really good Arrow Demon abilities are Extraordinary.

Skeletons are also immune to cold, which means that they get healed by Uttercold attacks.

Other undead:

You want Shadows. They're easy to control, and the Shadow spawning rules mean that you can control a nearly unlimited number of them with a handful of Command Undeads. If you're having trouble finding shadows, take Undead Leadership and get one as a cohort. They're low HD, so you can get one as soon as you're eligible for the feat (if you wait a level, until 7th, you can get a greater shadow IIRC).

For high level stuff, you mainly want to take advantage of the ability of certain undead creatures to have class levels. Mummies and vampires are good. Mummy clerics, like the one in the MM, can rebuke other undead and bring them under your control. Vamps can give you vamp spawn. Wights and ghouls make more wights and ghouls.

Basically, what you want to do to maximise the number of undead you can control at any given time is take control of a small number of undead that can control other undead. You then have the controlled undead controlling other undead, in a giant hierarchy. Look for undead creatures like shadows with the "Create Spawn" ability. When you can, take control of intelligent undead with class levels, especially clerics and necromancers who can use their spells to supplement everything. Always make sure to have higher level HD undead controlling lower HD undead, and don't just organise things racially.

This is why the corpsecrafter feats aren't super important usually. To control the maximum number of undead, you'll find yourself in charge of hordes of undead creatures that you didn't create. You'll also want to focus your control resources (Command Undead, Control Undead, whatever else you can muster) on those few top-level guys around you. You can control up to four guys with the same level as you - a greater shadow cleric, a vamp cleric, a wight cleric and a mummy cleric work reasonably well. Think of them as the high priests of your evil cult for roleplaying purposes.

In combat:

As a wizard with the Lord of the Uttercold, you basically want to cast spells with a huge area that deal negative energy damage, and keep both your own undead and your enemies in them. The longer lasting the better, which is why you want conjurations instead of evocations when possible. Don't forget that under D&D, "acid" is a kind of energy, which means things like Acid Cloud, Caustic Smoke etc. are all eligible to be Uttercolded. Conjuration (creation) spells are wicked for this.

The main thing about using your undead is just to keep tiers of control in mind. You don't want your valuable undead minions with class levels at risk, you want the chumps they control to be running around mashing everything. In general, you want your zombies to hold enemies still so that undead with ability drain, mummy rot, energy drain etc. can move in to zap them. You want your skeletons to attack as much as possible, driving enemies into effects like your Uttercolded Acid Fog, and using concealment etc.

Anyhow, hopefully this has been some help. I left a lot of parts loosely sketched out so that I didn't overdetermine things. The basic ideas are simple enough. Control undead through spawn chains. Keep them fighting-fit through area-effect damage spells.

When I was playing AD&D, it was either Half-Elf Ranger or Half-Elf Bard (the Bard class being a variant from an issue of The Dragon).  Always the same thing.  Admittedly, the Half-Elf Ranger was pretty much the best of all worlds.

Now that I've begun to venture into 3.0/3.5, I've stumbled onto my new favorite build -- The Halfling Axe-Slinger.  Dig on this.

As a Halfling, you get a +1 racial bonus on thrown weapons, and a +1 size bonus.  Be sure to make DEX your highest attribute (at least 13), but don't slack off on STR.  Take the Fighter class and choose the two feats Point Blank Shot for +1 and Quick Draw.  Arm yourself with a bandolier or holsters of throwing axes.  At 1st Level, you can snatch an unreadied axe and throw it short range with a +4 to-hit mod.  At 2nd Level, take the Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe) feat, and you're up to a +6 to-hit.  At 3rd Level, take the Rapid Fire feat to make two thrown axe attacks at -2/-2 for a total of +5/+5 to hit or just one at +7.  At 4th Level, take the Weapon Specialisation (Throwing Axe) feat to add +2 damage per attack at either +8 to hit or +6/+6.  At 6th Level, you add another attack through normal advancement for a total of either +10/+5 to hit or +8/+8/+5, all with +2 damage.  For feats, probably take the Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes feats.  In fairly short order, your Halfling Fighter becomes a flurry of flying axes, and all of this without yet incorporating your DEX bonus.  Be sure to drift from town to town, challenging unruly thugs in order to gain experience.

Now, I'm a newbie, so feel free to tell me where I might be mistaken, or how I might heighten to lethality of this character build.  Has anyone already come up with this?

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNow, I'm a newbie, so feel free to tell me where I might be mistaken, or how I might heighten to lethality of this character build.  Has anyone already come up with this?

The big problems with this build are that the throwing axe for a small character only does 1d4 damage, and that when you hit the magic weapon phase of the game, you're having to pay out about 2000 gp x your number of axes.

You're almost as fantastic just going with a longbow - that's a 1d6 damage.  You lose the +1 for using a thrown weapon, but on the other hand you don't need Quick Draw and you can buy a +1 bow for 23xx gp and all of your hits are magical.

Okay, but admit it, the image of a Halfling axe-slinger is just cool. :haw:

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOkay, but admit it, the image of a Halfling axe-slinger is just cool. :haw:

Oh hell yeah.  I'd play that guy over some stupid archer, magic item costs be damned.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOkay, but admit it, the image of a Halfling axe-slinger is just cool. :haw:

Total agreement!  (One time at a con I was judging a girl playing a halfling dagger thrower, and her dice was hot - she kept hitting, and when she hit she kept rolling max damage.  I started calling her 'The world's most dangerous halfling.')

Honestly, I think if you could talk your GM into allowing you a, oh, gauntlet or amulet or something that would give your axes a magical bonus when thrown similar to the way that bows give an arrow a magical bonus when launched, then the build would probably work out pretty well.

Quote from: jcfialaHonestly, I think if you could talk your GM into allowing you a, oh, gauntlet or amulet or something that would give your axes a magical bonus when thrown similar to the way that bows give an arrow a magical bonus when launched, then the build would probably work out pretty well.

Not a gauntlet or amulet, a bandolier.

Ever seen "Kung Fu Hustle"?  Remember the Axe Gang?  I suddenly have this image of gang of hipster, axe-wielding halflings taking over a town, choreographed moves and all.

!i!