I bumped both up to level 11 so the mage is doing 3d8 and the fighter has 3 attacks of 1d8 each and the results were the same.

They both got in close to the same total die of damage over just 25 rounds of target practice as it were.

Main difference was that the fighter was landing hits just about every round. There were two spots where he missed four times in a row. But that meant that he only wooshed a round at this point. The Mage was doing damage in spikes and pretty much missed about every other round at one point.

The mage got 17 hits in totalling 51d6 damage. The fighter got 55 hits.

Do note that all this does is show that under equal conditions the math holds up and alot of little hits and one big hit will equal out in NEXT. The fighter and mage might even have the same to hit range as the mage gets INT bonus to hit with Ray of Frost and the Fighter gets STR or DEX depending on the weapon.

Ray though does not get the damage boost from a stat that a fighter gets for a weapon and good STR/DEX.

And there WILL be situations were you just need to tag the opponent. such as to interrupt a spell. And that is were the fighter has an advantage. Whereas if you just need someone dead NOW. The mage "might" have the better shot. IF they hit.

The fighter will though have various tricks to potentially dole out even more damage depending on their choices up to that point and the mage has a potential to sling up to 9 Lightning Bolts for example totalling something like 64 die of damage. No to hit needed and damages them even if they save.

Toss in tactics and other factors and things get really interesting.

Does any of this matter to me or my group one bit if X Y or Z has more theoretical DPS?

No.

Not one bit.

We play classes that interest us because they are fun to play.
Not because we want to out munchkin the others. Because at the end of the day you have to work together to win because there will be situations where your awsome powers are useless.

Play the GAME. Dont PLAY the game. (This should be in a fortune cookie...)

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;761159Is that just a fighter ability or open to anybody? Been awhile since I read the packets.
If its both, a damage bonus to just the first attack that hits would favour 2 attacks as its two chances to hit; I think rogue sneak attack works that way, so fighter/rogue would be slightly better synergy).

Sneak Attack woks that way, as do a fair few spells IIRC (You basically cast them as a reaction to hitting in melee). There was not a fighter ability that worked this way as far as I remember.

Quote from: Omega;761223Do note that all this does is show that under equal conditions the math holds up and alot of little hits and one big hit will equal out in NEXT. The fighter and mage might even have the same to hit range as the mage gets INT bonus to hit with Ray of Frost and the Fighter gets STR or DEX depending on the weapon.

Well, I guess it's nice that the fighter - you know, the guy whose class is pretty much defined by his ability to fight things - is at least on-par with the guy who can kill people or do one of a dozen other things with his magic.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;761238Well, I guess it's nice that the fighter - you know, the guy whose class is pretty much defined by his ability to fight things - is at least on-par with the guy who can kill people or do one of a dozen other things with his magic.

Armour, Weapons, various quirks. Also make great door openers. aheh.

I agree that the mage is getting a bit more oomph that it feels like should. But others might disagree. And from the playtest alone it feels to me that it fits in context of how Next works.

As said elsewhere. Easy enough to houserule Ray down to a d6 and/or remove the INT bonus to hit. Or add a spell component. There are ways to curb it if it is seen as an issue at a table. And as noted. The mage spells have been sometimes toned down a fair bit.

A better question is. How do the other classes compare? Combat-wise. Not on par with the Fighter it seems. But they have other areas they function in.

And is it even an issue?
For me. No. For others. Who knows.

Some of this may well be moot if anything changed from the playtest reguarding either elements.

Quote from: Omega;761223The mage got 17 hits in totalling 51d6 damage. The fighter got 55 hits.

I am not following the math, but 17 big hits vs 55 smaller ones probably won't "feel the same" - and I could see it swing both ways.  In 90% of combats - where there are multiple foes each weaker than a given PC - I think the fighter would shine.  Not only are the spell caster's big hits overkill, but they just plain miss more.  The fighter, as others have said, could possibly switch targets between kills and spread the damage around.

Vs orcs, goblins, etc - fighter should "win"

Vs dragons - maybe caster.  But all that damage rolled up into fewer saving throws will amplify the curve that throw is on.  So if said dragon is good at throws it seems fewer chances are in the players favor.  Any one fail has a big impact.  But if dragon is bad at saves making them roll more often should benefit the players.

No clue if that has any bearing on 5e, but that's how it seems in general.

Quote from: mcbobbo;761280I am not following the math, but 17 big hits vs 55 smaller ones probably won't "feel the same" - and I could see it swing both ways.  In 90% of combats - where there are multiple foes each weaker than a given PC - I think the fighter would shine.  Not only are the spell caster's big hits overkill, but they just plain miss more.  The fighter, as others have said, could possibly switch targets between kills and spread the damage around.

Vs orcs, goblins, etc - fighter should "win"

Vs dragons - maybe caster.  But all that damage rolled up into fewer saving throws will amplify the curve that throw is on.  So if said dragon is good at throws it seems fewer chances are in the players favor.  Any one fail has a big impact.  But if dragon is bad at saves making them roll more often should benefit the players.

No clue if that has any bearing on 5e, but that's how it seems in general.

At 11th level the mage's Ray is doing 3d6 damage, and at 11th level the fighter is getting 3 attacks a round. Using the same 60% to hit chance that was the result. They still ended up about equal in output over 25 rounds.

From the playtest...

For Fireball and Lightning Bolt its a DEX save. A Black dragon has a DEX of 10. A Green has a DEX of 13 for example. So for the Black that is a 50% chance to save, and for the Green its a 65% chance.

But Ray of frost just has a to-hit roll.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;761238Well, I guess it's nice that the fighter - you know, the guy whose class is pretty much defined by his ability to fight things - is at least on-par with the guy who can kill people or do one of a dozen other things with his magic.

And... which character is going to stand up to a hit from an ogre?

Quote from: robiswrong;761322And... which character is going to stand up to a hit from an ogre?

At high levels, a wizard can do interesting things (like travel to other planes) that a Fighter... just can't.  

I can legitimately seeing people upset that wizards are 'just as good' at 'killing things' which is supposed to be the specialty of the fighter, but ultimately, a wizard gets more options.  They can play the game when it isn't about killing people.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;761330At high levels, a wizard can do interesting things (like travel to other planes) that a Fighter... just can't.  

I can legitimately seeing people upset that wizards are 'just as good' at 'killing things' which is supposed to be the specialty of the fighter, but ultimately, a wizard gets more options.  They can play the game when it isn't about killing people.

I understand that, and it's a valid point.

My point is that "combat effectiveness" is not just damage output.  It's damage output, resilience, and other stuff besides.  It may still be that the Fighter is good at combat and the wizard is just as good (though probably in other ways) as the fighter, but gets to do other stuff.

Can we please remember that the damage shown isn't figuring in +Str mod, or +Magic weapon, or well anything.

This is 10 Str Fighter vs 10 Str Wizard (to get the same hit percentages without the fighter having a +to damage)

Once you start counting Fighters who are actually strong (or dextrous in the case of finesse fighters), or a +1 Weapon then we are going to see a widening gap between at will combat damage. On top of the versatility of being able to hit more targets.

Also, if you check out the number of spell slots Wizards got in the playtest for casting, they aren't going to be able to cast nearly as may non-cantrip spells as they could in earlier editions.

(And the fighter will still have higher AC and more Hit Points)

Quote from: robiswrong;761322And... which character is going to stand up to a hit from an ogre?

Which is better: having the ability to take a few hits from an ogre, or being able to fly above the ogre's reach and not get hit at all?

Or go invisible... or make a bunch of illusory copies of yourself... or just summon an expendable meatshield from another plane...

QuoteMy point is that "combat effectiveness" is not just damage output. It's damage output, resilience, and other stuff besides. It may still be that the Fighter is good at combat and the wizard is just as good (though probably in other ways) as the fighter, but gets to do other stuff.

Sure, there are plenty of other factors. And yet I'm fairly certain that we'll see spells that let wizards either (1) replicate the other combat-centric abilities of a fighter, or (2) render them moot (like being able to fly out of reach of melee-focused opponents).

Quote from: Omega;761304At 11th level the mage's Ray is doing 3d6 damage, and at 11th level the fighter is getting 3 attacks a round. Using the same 60% to hit chance that was the result. They still ended up about equal in output over 25 rounds.

From the playtest...

For Fireball and Lightning Bolt its a DEX save. A Black dragon has a DEX of 10. A Green has a DEX of 13 for example. So for the Black that is a 50% chance to save, and for the Green its a 65% chance.

But Ray of frost just has a to-hit roll.

I have stayed away from the WIP stuff, except hearsay, so forgive any stupid questions...

Does the fighter get +str to damage?  Is that limited to once per round?  Can they still crit?  Can Wizard spells crit?

Does a save negate or do half?  And Ray of Frost gets no save at all?

Also fighters probably get a bigger die than d6, right?  Unless TWF light weapons or somesuch?

Even still 3d6 to one target is more situational than 1d6 three times between one, two, or three targets.  Big boss and or nuke from orbit stuff.

Quote from: mcbobbo;761347Does the fighter get +str to damage?  Is that limited to once per round?  

Yes, or Dex with certain weapons. This applies to every attack.

QuoteCan they still crit?  Can Wizard spells crit?

I don't think we know the current crit rules.

QuoteDoes a save negate or do half?  And Ray of Frost gets no save at all?

No save, but you do have to roll to hit like a ranged attack (but using Int). It also slows the target by 10 feet and is obviously Cold Damage.

QuoteAlso fighters probably get a bigger die than d6, right?  Unless TWF light weapons or somesuch?

I would assume a d8 personally, for a typical long sword and board fighter.

Quote from: jadrax;761352Yes, or Dex with certain weapons. This applies to every attack.

except the off hand attack from dual weapons.  You don't get your ability modifier to that unless you've specialized (either class feature or feat) in dual weapon fighting.

QuoteI don't think we know the current crit rules.

They very well could have changed.  IIRC, it was max damage and you didn't roll.  I houseruled it to double rolled damage like I've been playing for years.

Well, unless I am missing something, 3d6 is less than, e.g. (1d8+2)x3 - all day every day.