Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;760932You want 2 x d8 if:
*you can trade an attack for something else which has an effect other than damage (trip, disarm, dodge, whatever)
*you're fighting something with only a couple of hit points, or other cases where doing any damage has an effect (spell disruption?)
*you get a damage bonus that applies to all your attacks in the round

*You get to apply a Damage bonus to the first attack in a round that hits

QuoteI missed the original argument though; don't fighters get a damage bonus making them do more damage anyway? Possibly with some dodgy power where you still do damage on a miss?

The pre-gen Fighter does not, no.

Quote from: jadrax;760931It did not exist at all in the last play test packet.

In the last playtest, They replaced DR with "Resistance" which means half damage from certain damage types (as specified by the creature description). This means you always do some damage.  No hitting for 10, only to find out target has DR15.  They also had in that packet a feat that allowed DR based on CON Mod.

Quote from: honesttiago;760936In the last playtest, They replaced DR with "Resistance" which means half damage from certain damage types (as specified by the creature description). This means you always do some damage.  No hitting for 10, only to find out target has DR15.

This doesn't effect if you want to make a 2d8 attack or 2 1d8 attacks.

QuoteThey also had in that packet a feat that allowed DR based on CON Mod.

Yes you are right, I had forgot Heavy Armor Master. Good catch.

Yeah. Once modifiers are added from like my fighter STR bonuses then things shift sometimes dramatically in the fighters favor as it adds up gradually.

The wizard had the advantage of range and we could factor in ray of frosts slowing element too.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;760932You want 2 x d8 if:
*you can trade an attack for something else which has an effect other than damage (trip, disarm, dodge, whatever)
*you're fighting something with only a couple of hit points, or other cases where doing any damage has an effect (spell disruption?)
*you get a damage bonus that applies to all your attacks in the round

Or:

*you're fighting multiple opponents who are individually quite weak.

Quote from: jadrax;760939This doesn't effect if you want to make a 2d8 attack or 2 1d8 attacks.

You're right, it doesn't. But there was a mention of whether there was DR or not, so I was just providing the info.

I can tell everyone here that, in play, fighter eclipses everyone in bringing the pain. Wizards are still glass cannons as far as that goes, especially when the fighter gets 2 attacks + action surge. Since ACs are low in 5th, it's just chop, chop, chop.  In the last playtest, which we are still using at level 9, the fighter shines brighter than any other D&D version I've seen, outside 4E, where everyone more or less shined equally in combat. Combat is the fighter's domain. Wizard damage is still nuke damage, for the most part, but the main thing, as already mentioned here, is utility. Wizards are handy for making some problems a lot easier to solve.

Right.

Against opponents with average of 3 hit points, the 2d8 is overkill.  While the Wizard might do the same amount of damage over any given 10 rounds, he's putting that damage against at most 10 targets - the Fighter would be putting it over potentially 20 targets.

The fact that attacks have to be allocated to specific creatures until the point that they reach 0 hit points makes the math a little tricky.  

Imagine, for a moment, that the opponents have 17 hit points.  It's clear that the Wizard won't 'one-shot' them (and of course, neither will the Fighter).  Two attacks each dealing 1d8 is probably more useful in that situation because when you get to the point where a target is VERY LOW on hit points, you can potentially direct your next attack to a new opponent.  

Ultimately, what this should encourage is that the Wizard attack a 'high toughness' character, and the Fighter focus on dropping already wounded characters.

In AD&D at least fighters and other physical combat types also had the advantage of being able to shift to subdual damage.

A mage cannot do that with an attack spell. Its allways set to kill.

Quote from: CRKrueger;760891Excellent.  Now tell me whether you would rather have one chance at 2d8 or 2 chances at 1d8.  Are some instances better for one or the other, not over time in a sim, but with certain opponents in front of you?  

I think I've tracked down the exact line that started all this, but I'll wait until Sac comes in and calls me a goal-shifting coward or something.

When you shift the goal posts, people are going to say you're goal post shifting.  That's sort of how it works.  The original conversation started because people were flipping out that the mage's at will spells were doing way too much damage compared to the fighter.  So the original context of that entire conversation was to compare how much damage a mage does per round compared to a fighter's.

The equation was simple, and sound.  You said it wasn't, and when called out on how basic math works, you started adding a bunch of factors into the equation that weren't there when we were talking about the issue.  That's called shifting the goalposts when you're changing the scenario to retroactively fit your claim.

Quote from: Omega;760952In AD&D at least fighters and other physical combat types also had the advantage of being able to shift to subdual damage.

A mage cannot do that with an attack spell. Its allways set to kill.

Well you could use something like hold person or sleep or some higher level Abjuration or even Transmutation spells....

Quote from: Marleycat;760990Well you could use something like hold person or sleep or some higher level Abjuration or even Transmutation spells....

That is totally irrelevant to the point.

A ray of frost has one setting. Kill. You cant use it to subdue. (Short of the DM allowing you to.)

Quote from: Omega;761017That is totally irrelevant to the point.

A ray of frost has one setting. Kill. You cant use it to subdue. (Short of the DM allowing you to.)

Of course I just said there are other options. But if it's specifically Ray of Frost v physical weapon you're correct.

Quote from: Omega;761017That is totally irrelevant to the point.

A ray of frost has one setting. Kill. You cant use it to subdue. (Short of the DM allowing you to.)

I don't have a problem with that because a fighter can always hit with the flat of his sword, etc.  Hard to do that with a fireball, magic missile, or lightning bolt.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;761019I don't have a problem with that because a fighter can always hit with the flat of his sword, etc.  Hard to do that with a fireball, magic missile, or lightning bolt.

I would totally subdue everyone with my lightning bolt! :eek:

Quote from: Omega;761020I would totally subdue everyone with my lightning bolt! :eek:

Well, I'd hope normal moral rules (however the DM wants to use them) would still apply.  I.e., even though there might not be an "official" way to subdue using a lightning bolt, if you nail someone with it nearly killing them, they very well might still act subdued