While I may consider Sac the sites village idiot sometimes.

He has a point. To a point.

The argument being along the lines of Fighter doing two 1d8 attacks at 60% chance to hit each, and wizard doing a single 2d8 attack for same chance.

I did a quick test. No bonuses. Just bare basics as for this test that is all that counts.

After 25 rounds the Fighter hit 27 times for 27 die of damage and the wizard did hit 16 times for 28 die of damage.
 
So I rolled up damage. Also just the basics. The fighter did 138 damage and the mage did 125 total. Rolled the damage a second time out of curiosity for both and got about the opposite. Fighter did 128 and wizard 137.

In one sequence the mage hit once out of 7 rounds while in that same span the fighter hit seven times.

Swingy as all get out. But in the long run it evened out.

Add in the fighters to hit and damage bonuses though, if any. And the fighter will jump ahead by a little bit each attack and that accumulates over time. In the above example a fighter with a +2 damage bonus will be doing an additional 54 damage. If he has say a +2 to hit then hes hitting 10% more often. The mage usually does not get those to-hit and damage bonuses.

This is why I do these hands on experiments. I need to see for myself if the math does what people claim. Or not. It is how I finally came to understand the bell curve on dice rolls.

Quote from: Omega;760884While I may consider Sac the sites village idiot sometimes.

He has a point. To a point.

The argument being along the lines of Fighter doing two 1d8 attacks at 60% chance to hit each, and wizard doing a single 2d8 attack for same chance.

I did a quick test. No bonuses. Just bare basics as for this test that is all that counts.

After 25 rounds the Fighter hit 27 times for 27 die of damage and the wizard did hit 16 times for 28 die of damage.
 
So I rolled up damage. Also just the basics. The fighter did 138 damage and the mage did 125 total. Rolled the damage a second time out of curiosity for both and got about the opposite. Fighter did 128 and wizard 137.

In one sequence the mage hit once out of 7 rounds while in that same span the fighter hit seven times.

Swingy as all get out. But in the long run it evened out.

Add in the fighters to hit and damage bonuses though, if any. And the fighter will jump ahead by a little bit each attack and that accumulates over time. In the above example a fighter with a +2 damage bonus will be doing an additional 54 damage. If he has say a +2 to hit then hes hitting 10% more often. The mage usually does not get those to-hit and damage bonuses.

This is why I do these hands on experiments. I need to see for myself if the math does what people claim. Or not. It is how I finally came to understand the bell curve on dice rolls.

Excellent.  Now tell me whether you would rather have one chance at 2d8 or 2 chances at 1d8.  Are some instances better for one or the other, not over time in a sim, but with certain opponents in front of you?  

I think I've tracked down the exact line that started all this, but I'll wait until Sac comes in and calls me a goal-shifting coward or something.

Quote from: CRKrueger;760891Excellent.  Now tell me whether you would rather have one chance at 2d8 or 2 chances at 1d8.  Are some instances better for one or the other, not over time in a sim, but with certain opponents in front of you?  

I think I've tracked down the exact line that started all this, but I'll wait until Sac comes in and calls me a goal-shifting coward or something.

I would prefer 2 chances over 1. Yes the fighter and wizard are even in a closed scenerio but in reality the fighter is all about consistent damage via multiple attacks while a wizard is the strategic hammer and all about spike damage if she chooses that solution. Her advantage isn't straight damage because that's a sorcerer's deal. Her real deal is tilting the field. So that everyone is focused on her while her boyfriend with that huge sword kills you or softens everybody up for her BIG HAMMER. Game over.

Quote from: CRKrueger;760891Excellent.  Now tell me whether you would rather have one chance at 2d8 or 2 chances at 1d8.  Are some instances better for one or the other, not over time in a sim, but with certain opponents in front of you?  

I think I've tracked down the exact line that started all this, but I'll wait until Sac comes in and calls me a goal-shifting coward or something.

aheh.

Honestly both have their merits and flaws. But seem equal in the end

I play the mage alot and so Im used to wooshing more than wacking.

A fighter is going to be landing a hit just about every round. Which means the fighter is likely to be able to interrupt spells or mow down the little guys.

The mage will have those times where a whole lot of damage on a kobold is overkill. But otherwise will be outputting on par with the fighter. Its just that each miss will feel like more of a fail. But that is just perceived rather than actuality.

In Next playtest that would be about what youd see with a 5th level mage and fighter. One using a cantrip and the other a big sword.

Were it depletable spells it would probably be a different matter. The mage would have to save the harder hitting spells for fitting targets or desperation moves.

Can I at least ride Falcor on this never ending story? :idunno:

Quote from: Opaopajr;760910Can I at least ride Falcor on this never ending story? :idunno:

Ok fine.

Quote from: Opaopajr;760910Can I at least ride Falcor on this never ending story? :idunno:

How much damage does he do?

Quote from: Omega;760914How much damage does he do?

Well, hrms. He's probably a unique dragon like Bahumat or Tiamat, a Luck dragon; probably Fey of some sort as well as draconic. So he probably has a strange breath weapon like a super color spray, or other prismatic effect.

Quote from: Silverlion;760920Well, hrms. He's probably a unique dragon like Bahumat or Tiamat, a Luck dragon; probably Fey of some sort as well as draconic. So he probably has a strange breath weapon like a super color spray, or other prismatic effect.

hmmm, so at 5th level thats 4 attacks of d4 each, with a 60% chance to hit.

Quote from: CRKrueger;760891Excellent.  Now tell me whether you would rather have one chance at 2d8 or 2 chances at 1d8.  Are some instances better for one or the other, not over time in a sim, but with certain opponents in front of you?

Exactly.

The problem here is that while the wizard has a better chance of doing 2d8 damage than the fighter, the fighter has a better chance of doing any damage at all, in a given round.

As the fight progresses, the probabilities - apparently - start merging towards each other, and it starts being irrelevant as combat rounds approach infinity. (Admittedly I'm not entirely convinced that that matters.)

Quote from: GnomeWorks;760922Exactly.

The problem here is that while the wizard has a better chance of doing 2d8 damage than the fighter, the fighter has a better chance of doing any damage at all, in a given round.

As the fight progresses, the probabilities - apparently - start merging towards each other, and it starts being irrelevant as combat rounds approach infinity. (Admittedly I'm not entirely convinced that that matters.)

Overall. No. It doesnt seem to matter other than when a hit or miss really matters.

The minotaur is down to 2 HP. And So are you.
The mage needs to hit. Period. A miss means the Minotaur is going to pay into them.

The fighter just needs to hit once, possibly twice if no bonuses are in use. And hes got two chances to land a hit.

Otherwise in the long run it evens out mostly. The mage is just going to have those times when the enemy sidesteps everything.

A lot depends on whether foes have damage reduction. Of course, I don't even know whether damage reduction is a thing in 5E at all, let alone how common it is.

If it's straight up damage race, I'll take the fighter. If there's some use for utility (movement stealth control), the wizard is a better choice.

Quote from: Warthur;760927A lot depends on whether foes have damage reduction. Of course, I don't even know whether damage reduction is a thing in 5E at all, let alone how common it is.

It did not exist at all in the last play test packet.

Situationally, you want 2d8 if:
*you have a one-off to hit bonus (True Strike or whatnot)
*you get a bonus attack from somewhere
*you're hitting something with damage reduction

You want 2 x d8 if:
*you can trade an attack for something else which has an effect other than damage (trip, disarm, dodge, whatever)
*you're fighting something with only a couple of hit points, or other cases where doing any damage has an effect (spell disruption?)
*you get a damage bonus that applies to all your attacks in the round

I missed the original argument though; don't fighters get a damage bonus making them do more damage anyway? Possibly with some dodgy power where you still do damage on a miss?