New evidence that the "2024" (really "2024/2025") D&D is failing.

And this surprises no one.

Depending on how stupid wotc is. They may have even been banking on losing 5e players to fake 5e. Good only for some free outrage marketing as they are discarded.

Claim its compatible with the old version, after a year of insulting your current audience... Should be no surprise most gamers are sticking with what they have. D&D will get enough newcomers that won't know the difference to buy books and they'll claim a victory of sorts after a few years.

If they are smart they'll come up with a new Basic Set that goes from 1-10 levels and has art from older editions to give the retro feel. Make it cheap and they'll sell a lot and have something to crow about while they figure out their VTT.

Quote from: Ruprecht on February 05, 2025, 10:05:27 AMIf they are smart they'll come up with a new Basic Set that goes from 1-10 levels and has art from older editions to give the retro feel. Make it cheap and they'll sell a lot and have something to crow about while they figure out their VTT.

  Not necessarily 1-10 levels, but hitting much of the rest: D&D: Heroes of the Borderlands, coming this September.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 05, 2025, 10:58:22 AMNot necessarily 1-10 levels, but hitting much of the rest: D&D: Heroes of the Borderlands, coming this September.

Given my less than satisfactory sitdown look through of a friend's 2024 PHB a week and a half ago, I don't see myself buying any of the core books (let alone any subsequent supplements).  I might check out the starter set though if the components interest me from a research on production/quality/utility standpoint. 

Once again "Official" D&D is beginning to level off from a fad (Your point about Stranger things) to a hobby. Like other recreational activities, it must compete with online games and social media as well as the flood of better RPG alternatives. Attempts to appeal to a niche and fickle audience who take insult at the slightest provocation seems to be a losing strategy for them .The sooner we can distance ourselves from WOTC the better, I don't bother to compare 5E or 2024 D&D to OSR, they are completely different games and should be treated as such.

Big Bang Theory also popularized various niche hobbies which arguably hurt them.

Yeah, any decrease is definitely multifactorial.  The pandemic lockdown ttrpg bump is long gone, Big Bang Theory is firmly in reruns and not actively popularizing geek chic, Stranger Things isn't even about D&D peripherally any more with the kids split up and is ending this year anyways... and those are just the things off of the top of my head that are NOT under Wotc's control that will negatively affect them.   The OGL debacle, harmful and discriminatory messaging by employees and even executives under the guise of regressive ideological talking points alienating their core fanbase, the flopping of the D&D film, sic'ing the Pinkertons on a customer because of a distributor's mistake, the inability to properly plan ahead for a 50th anniversary edition release, and multiple successive AI missteps and coverups... those were under their control.  If this edition ends up (relatively speaking) flopping like 4e despite the massive headstart 5e gave it, it'll be justly deserved.

Quote from: Ruprecht on February 05, 2025, 10:05:27 AMIf they are smart they'll come up with a new Basic Set that goes from 1-10 levels and has art from older editions to give the retro feel. Make it cheap and they'll sell a lot and have something to crow about while they figure out their VTT.

All they would have to do is get Mike Mearls to polish the streamlined version of 5e that he is working on, re-use the absolute pile of Larry Elmore and Jeff Easley art that they have = Instant winner.

But they hate money.

Quote from: RNGm on February 05, 2025, 02:13:01 PMYeah, any decrease is definitely multifactorial.  The pandemic lockdown ttrpg bump is long gone, Big Bang Theory is firmly in reruns and not actively popularizing geek chic, Stranger Things isn't even about D&D peripherally any more with the kids split up and is ending this year anyways... and those are just the things off of the top of my head that are NOT under Wotc's control that will negatively affect them.   The OGL debacle, harmful and discriminatory messaging by employees and even executives under the guise of regressive ideological talking points alienating their core fanbase, the flopping of the D&D film, sic'ing the Pinkertons on a customer because of a distributor's mistake, the inability to properly plan ahead for a 50th anniversary edition release, and multiple successive AI missteps and coverups... those were under their control.  If this edition ends up (relatively speaking) flopping like 4e despite the massive headstart 5e gave it, it'll be justly deserved.

Very good summary.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 05, 2025, 02:47:26 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on February 05, 2025, 10:05:27 AMIf they are smart they'll come up with a new Basic Set that goes from 1-10 levels and has art from older editions to give the retro feel. Make it cheap and they'll sell a lot and have something to crow about while they figure out their VTT.

All they would have to do is get Mike Mearls to polish the streamlined version of 5e that he is working on, re-use the absolute pile of Larry Elmore and Jeff Easley art that they have = Instant winner.

But they hate money.

No, they hate you.  The money is only an ancillary concern.  As long as they are financially comfortable, they don't care about making money for the company.  And the top echelons of major entertainment corporations  are also indifferent to financial concerns (and least as far as consumers are involved).  Did you know that, when Pelt was attempting to get a seat on the board of Disney, he discovered that the entire Disney board held less than 2 million dollars in Disney stock among them?  They don't care if the company tanks; they are set for life on their compensation packages (funded by Vanguard and Blackrock).

This is why I can't wait for the inevitable Hasbro collapse.  The DEI capital funds are drying up, Trump has pulled the plug on the back channel siphoning of money to the NGOs and media corps that push this crap, and the financial reckoning is coming.  And WotC just hired the "female" LARPer who was lead designer on DragonAge Veilguard to head their next software project.

What an interesting time to be alive!

Honestly, my whole view on this is:

your game can contain far-left politics, ideology, social nonsense, whatever, as long as the system and setting are good (one can always replace the nonsense provided the system and setting are good)

the problem with 5e, is that it has all that stuff AND the system is trash: it is a convoluted mess, complicated, and bloated. WOTC's biggest crime isn't all the woke nonsense. Their biggest crime is turning D&D into a bad table-top video game that tries to be all things to all people and fails everywhere.

it is like the crazy car Homer Simpson designed

It's crazy liberating to watch all of this from the sidelines. If I had to pick one word to describe how I felt about it, it would be something like "bemused".

I have played 5E-2014 since before 2014, as I was in some playtest sessions with a guy who has WotC connections. I recently picked up all three core books for 5E-2024 (Monster Manual came out yesterday). In my opinion, all three of the 2024 rulebooks are superior to their 2014 equivalents.
(1) The PH is better organized, with spell lists moved to be along with the rest of the class data.
(2) The DMG spends more time explaining how to be a DM, how to build a campaign, and so on.
(3) The MM organizes monster data better, with important combat info easier to find.

Having said all of that, here are some thoughts:
(1) 2024 changes how we get the numbers, but the final numbers are similar to 2014 so old modules still work.
(2) 2024 is a lot better for newer players, but the advantage to veteran players is far less.
(3) It is unclear to me why most groups would want to change to the new edition.

In other words, 2024 is a better system for folks who don't know better but for anyone who has been playing for a while the changes are minimal. Again, details on how to get the numbers are different but the final results aren't that different at all, with the exception of some of the feats (when you can get them) and healing spells (another die thrown in, e.g. 1d8+mod "cure wounds" is now 2d8+mod). Every edition includes mandatory "power creep" and it's clear that 2024 characters get more feats and thus tend to be slightly more powerful than their 2014 equivalent.

The 2024 rules makes the background choice a lot more important, which is sort of a good thing except that some backgrounds are clearly designed to go with certain classes. The trade-off, naturally, is that race becomes a lot less important. My complaint there is the fact that race stereotypes tend to go away, so that dwarves aren't that sturdy or elves that dexterous. For some that doesn't matter, for me I miss the Tolkienized flavor of older editions. The rules are still pretty solid, however.

However, if you hated 5E there isn't anything to make you not hate 2024 5E. I've heard a lot of the complaints about the 5E rules and the new ones are similar enough that they won't address the issues you dislike the most. For example, the "we hate classes" folks will still see classes. The "back to the old days" folks will still see powerful cantrips that never run out, hit point bloat, level charts that go to 20, and so on. The game is still fundamentally 5E, so the folks who didn't like it before certainly won't be pulled in to play it now.

My players used to play old-school D&D before 5E came out. In 2014 they switched over, liking skills and feats and bigger hit point totals and multiple actions per turn and other things I'd rather eliminate from my rules set. They like the new magic system, complete with cantrips and upcasting and other rules that make magic better. (I agree with them on most of the magic rules, by the way.) So they have embraced 2014 5E to the point where they aren't that interested in playing other rules sets. Our intent is to update to 2024 5E, but real life issues have gotten in the way so we haven't had much play time since the new PH came out. It will be interesting to see what they think of the new rules once we get a bunch of sessions under our belts.