Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

"I do 15 points of damage!!!"

"OK, but he has 45 HP."

"Oh....."

I was told it's because everyone can do like 1d10 or more damage (cantrips, etc.) so monster HP scales exponentially.  It's the old videogame mindset: monsters have to scale way higher than players.

Quote from: Nobleshield on October 05, 2024, 05:21:59 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

"I do 15 points of damage!!!"

"OK, but he has 45 HP."

"Oh....."

I was told it's because everyone can do like 1d10 or more damage (cantrips, etc.) so monster HP scales exponentially.  It's the old videogame mindset: monsters have to scale way higher than players.

Monster HP scaled up faster but they generally had few ways of regaining HP in a fight. PC HP scaled slower, but they typically have many ways of regaining HP mid-battle.

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 03:53:08 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

Also, in 4E, starting hit points are much higher, because it is a base number plus full Constitution score. But the increase per level is similar to other editions: around 4 to 6 added hp per level. Having more hp at the start does mean that there is more room for beings weaker than a starting PC, like an untrained commoner or a cat.

In early D&D, you can have a PC start with 1 or 2 hp, which makes them seem extremely weak - with possibilities like a PC being killed by an angry barmaid or a cat, say. Conversely, high level mundane PCs can seem extremely tough, like falling off a cliff and then dusting themselves off.

This change reduced that differential.

Also of note is that in 4E you did NOT add your Constitution modifer to your hit points per level. The fighter gets +6 hp per level (just above the average of a d10) whether their Con is 8 or 18. The high Con PC has a few more hit points from adding their full Con score at level 1 and more healing surges per day, but are quickly eclipsed by the +Con modifer hp per level in 3e and 5e in terms of base hit points.

The aforementioned 4E Ranger with 28 hit points at level one has a Con score of 16. At level six it has 53 hp.

A 5e Ranger with just a Con 14 starts with 12 hp at level one. At level six it has 52 hit points using the non-rolled option. If it's Con was a 16 it would instead have 58 hit points. Every level thereafter increases the gap further.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 30, 2024, 06:28:12 PMIt is corporate shenanigans. In terms of physical book sales, the first week sales have been very low, around 7000 copies. The number they're using takes into account the pre-orders and digital sales, which is not really the same. Of course, for them, it seems positive, because what they want is for people to play digitally. But it's a bit like claiming that your video game sold better than a novel.

I think the bigger lie wotc is covering is that they are counting a single purchase twice when it is not.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 06, 2024, 12:39:01 AM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 03:53:08 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

Also, in 4E, starting hit points are much higher, because it is a base number plus full Constitution score. But the increase per level is similar to other editions: around 4 to 6 added hp per level. Having more hp at the start does mean that there is more room for beings weaker than a starting PC, like an untrained commoner or a cat.

In early D&D, you can have a PC start with 1 or 2 hp, which makes them seem extremely weak - with possibilities like a PC being killed by an angry barmaid or a cat, say. Conversely, high level mundane PCs can seem extremely tough, like falling off a cliff and then dusting themselves off.

This change reduced that differential.

Also of note is that in 4E you did NOT add your Constitution modifer to your hit points per level. The fighter gets +6 hp per level (just above the average of a d10) whether their Con is 8 or 18. The high Con PC has a few more hit points from adding their full Con score at level 1 and more healing surges per day, but are quickly eclipsed by the +Con modifer hp per level in 3e and 5e in terms of base hit points.

The aforementioned 4E Ranger with 28 hit points at level one has a Con score of 16. At level six it has 53 hp.

A 5e Ranger with just a Con 14 starts with 12 hp at level one. At level six it has 52 hit points using the non-rolled option. If it's Con was a 16 it would instead have 58 hit points. Every level thereafter increases the gap further.

Yes. Con score of 16.. I used the standard array, and placed the 16 in Constitution.

I did a little comparison long ago on HP changes.
Basically AD&D you didnt get any change from CON 7 to 14. And only Fighters could gain a bonus better than +2 for CON over 14. Fighter rolls for HP to level 9 giving an average of 49.5 base HP if has a con under 15. And 3 HP for level thereafter. So by level 20 they'd have a base 82 hp. +20 more per point of CON over 14.

A 5e PC gets max HP at level 1 + con bonus and bonuses start at 12. The big diff is that they keep getting HP all the way to level 20. So the base average is 114. 124 if taking the average. 32 or 42 more HP before even factoring in CON which is easier to get. A fighter with a con if just 12 will have 134-144 HP, 154-164 at CON 14. 174-184 at con 16 while the AD&D Fighter would have only 112 hp.

The disparity is even greater with the Magic user/wizard.

That wotc designers really do not understand the game is prevalent with every edition.

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 06, 2024, 11:48:01 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 06, 2024, 12:39:01 AM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 03:53:08 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

Also, in 4E, starting hit points are much higher, because it is a base number plus full Constitution score. But the increase per level is similar to other editions: around 4 to 6 added hp per level. Having more hp at the start does mean that there is more room for beings weaker than a starting PC, like an untrained commoner or a cat.

In early D&D, you can have a PC start with 1 or 2 hp, which makes them seem extremely weak - with possibilities like a PC being killed by an angry barmaid or a cat, say. Conversely, high level mundane PCs can seem extremely tough, like falling off a cliff and then dusting themselves off.

This change reduced that differential.

Also of note is that in 4E you did NOT add your Constitution modifer to your hit points per level. The fighter gets +6 hp per level (just above the average of a d10) whether their Con is 8 or 18. The high Con PC has a few more hit points from adding their full Con score at level 1 and more healing surges per day, but are quickly eclipsed by the +Con modifer hp per level in 3e and 5e in terms of base hit points.

The aforementioned 4E Ranger with 28 hit points at level one has a Con score of 16. At level six it has 53 hp.

A 5e Ranger with just a Con 14 starts with 12 hp at level one. At level six it has 52 hit points using the non-rolled option. If it's Con was a 16 it would instead have 58 hit points. Every level thereafter increases the gap further.

Yes. Con score of 16.. I used the standard array, and placed the 16 in Constitution.

Standard array is 15/14/13/12/10/8

Quote from: Corolinth on October 08, 2024, 12:10:12 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 06, 2024, 11:48:01 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 06, 2024, 12:39:01 AM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 03:53:08 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

Also, in 4E, starting hit points are much higher, because it is a base number plus full Constitution score. But the increase per level is similar to other editions: around 4 to 6 added hp per level. Having more hp at the start does mean that there is more room for beings weaker than a starting PC, like an untrained commoner or a cat.

In early D&D, you can have a PC start with 1 or 2 hp, which makes them seem extremely weak - with possibilities like a PC being killed by an angry barmaid or a cat, say. Conversely, high level mundane PCs can seem extremely tough, like falling off a cliff and then dusting themselves off.

This change reduced that differential.

Also of note is that in 4E you did NOT add your Constitution modifer to your hit points per level. The fighter gets +6 hp per level (just above the average of a d10) whether their Con is 8 or 18. The high Con PC has a few more hit points from adding their full Con score at level 1 and more healing surges per day, but are quickly eclipsed by the +Con modifer hp per level in 3e and 5e in terms of base hit points.

The aforementioned 4E Ranger with 28 hit points at level one has a Con score of 16. At level six it has 53 hp.

A 5e Ranger with just a Con 14 starts with 12 hp at level one. At level six it has 52 hit points using the non-rolled option. If it's Con was a 16 it would instead have 58 hit points. Every level thereafter increases the gap further.

Yes. Con score of 16.. I used the standard array, and placed the 16 in Constitution.

Standard array is 15/14/13/12/10/8

In 5E. In 4E (Essentials) there are three:

Balanced: 16, 14, 14, 11,10, 10
Specialist: 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8
Dual Specialist: 16, 16, 12, 11, 11, 8

Quote from: Corolinth on October 08, 2024, 12:10:12 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 06, 2024, 11:48:01 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 06, 2024, 12:39:01 AM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 03:53:08 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

Also, in 4E, starting hit points are much higher, because it is a base number plus full Constitution score. But the increase per level is similar to other editions: around 4 to 6 added hp per level. Having more hp at the start does mean that there is more room for beings weaker than a starting PC, like an untrained commoner or a cat.

In early D&D, you can have a PC start with 1 or 2 hp, which makes them seem extremely weak - with possibilities like a PC being killed by an angry barmaid or a cat, say. Conversely, high level mundane PCs can seem extremely tough, like falling off a cliff and then dusting themselves off.

This change reduced that differential.

Also of note is that in 4E you did NOT add your Constitution modifer to your hit points per level. The fighter gets +6 hp per level (just above the average of a d10) whether their Con is 8 or 18. The high Con PC has a few more hit points from adding their full Con score at level 1 and more healing surges per day, but are quickly eclipsed by the +Con modifer hp per level in 3e and 5e in terms of base hit points.

The aforementioned 4E Ranger with 28 hit points at level one has a Con score of 16. At level six it has 53 hp.

A 5e Ranger with just a Con 14 starts with 12 hp at level one. At level six it has 52 hit points using the non-rolled option. If it's Con was a 16 it would instead have 58 hit points. Every level thereafter increases the gap further.

Yes. Con score of 16.. I used the standard array, and placed the 16 in Constitution.

Standard array is 15/14/13/12/10/8

No.  The Standard Array in 4E, has a 16 as it's highest score.  I used the standard array, found in PHB1.

I lost track of which edition you were on.

On the back cover, it reads "the essential reference for every fifth edition dungeons and dragons player."  That makes it sound like it's a mandatory book, required to play fifth edition?  As though one can't properly play fifth edition, without it?

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 13, 2024, 07:42:02 PMOn the back cover, it reads "the essential reference for every fifth edition dungeons and dragons player."  That makes it sound like it's a mandatory book, required to play fifth edition?  As though one can't properly play fifth edition, without it?

While not being 5th edition.

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 13, 2024, 07:42:02 PMOn the back cover, it reads "the essential reference for every fifth edition dungeons and dragons player."  That makes it sound like it's a mandatory book, required to play fifth edition?  As though one can't properly play fifth edition, without it?

Doesn't the 2014 version say that too?

Do you think the artist's intent was to portray a male or female face here in this upcoming D&D art?

Spoiler

Because this is apparently Bobby from the D&D cartoon all grown up as pictured in the upcoming DMG.  The full original picture...

I'm convinced this is 3.0 to 3.5; all over again.