Quote from: Nobleshield on October 01, 2024, 08:33:26 AMSo even RPG journalists are in fact, dogshit and you don't hate them enough.

RPG Journalists aren't real journalists.  Anyone can start a blog and call themselves a journalist. 

Quote from: jhkim on September 30, 2024, 07:03:14 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 30, 2024, 06:28:12 PMIt is corporate shenanigans. In terms of physical book sales, the first week sales have been very low, around 7000 copies. The number they're using takes into account the pre-orders and digital sales, which is not really the same. Of course, for them, it seems positive, because what they want is for people to play digitally. But it's a bit like claiming that your video game sold better than a novel.

A digital copy doesn't necessarily mean playing digitally. I own a lot of games in PDF only, but I still play them in person -- printing out stuff like character sheets and some reference pages, but keeping my laptop out at the game for my GM notes and rules reference. I'm sure that has become more common between 2014 and 2024. Having a digital rulebook doesn't mean playing a video game.

Also, I would say pre-orders of the physical book should count as a physical book sale. If anything, pre-ordering indicates greater interest than buying off the shelf.

But it's all tied to the VTT. What they're really doing is subscriptions to a video game, the books are incidental.

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 01, 2024, 01:00:42 PMBut it's all tied to the VTT. What they're really doing is subscriptions to a video game, the books are incidental.

Yep.  The fact that if you pre-ordered the books you would get a digital dragon for the VTT.  They don't care about people who buy books because you can  buy it once and play it forever.  As everyone knows, they want the subscription model where they can turn their players into ATMS.

Well, as long as people are having fun. I might grab a used 5e book or two one of these days. But so far I'm more interested in playing with what I have, including free Basic 5e when the mood arises.

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 03, 2024, 07:09:50 AMWell, as long as people are having fun. I might grab a used 5e book or two one of these days. But so far I'm more interested in playing with what I have, including free Basic 5e when the mood arises.

That's true.  As soon as I am done with my 5e games I am getting rid of my books and only playing OSR related fantasy games.  Since I am NEVER going to buy another product from scumbags of the coast I have no interest in the new books.  But if people are having fun then great.

Quote from: GhostNinja on October 03, 2024, 11:32:52 AM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 03, 2024, 07:09:50 AMWell, as long as people are having fun. I might grab a used 5e book or two one of these days. But so far I'm more interested in playing with what I have, including free Basic 5e when the mood arises.

That's true.  As soon as I am done with my 5e games I am getting rid of my books and only playing OSR related fantasy games.  Since I am NEVER going to buy another product from scumbags of the coast I have no interest in the new books.  But if people are having fun then great.

Worth noting is that if you're buying the books second-hand then no additional money is going to WotC, just to Half-Price Books or whoever you pick it up from.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 03, 2024, 01:51:38 PMWorth noting is that if you're buying the books second-hand then no additional money is going to WotC, just to Half-Price Books or whoever you pick it up from.

While that is true I feel that 5e is shit.  I want to play a fantasy rpg not a tabletop MMORPG which is what 5e feels like.

Quote from: GhostNinja on October 03, 2024, 09:53:38 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 03, 2024, 01:51:38 PMWorth noting is that if you're buying the books second-hand then no additional money is going to WotC, just to Half-Price Books or whoever you pick it up from.

While that is true I feel that 5e is shit.  I want to play a fantasy rpg not a tabletop MMORPG which is what 5e feels like.

As a 4E fan, the irony of you calling 5e a tabletop MMO is joyous (back in 2014 most everyone was saying it had SAVED D&D after the MMO edition).

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 04, 2024, 09:14:54 AMAs a 4E fan, the irony of you calling 5e a tabletop MMO is joyous (back in 2014 most everyone was saying it had SAVED D&D after the MMO edition).

4e was just like an MMO as well.  That's why I have left D&D for the OSR.  WOTC has destroyed D&D.

It's fine your like 4e.  If it's fun for you, great.  4th nor 5th edition is not for me.

There is no such thing is badwrongfun.

Quote from: GhostNinja on October 04, 2024, 03:41:11 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 04, 2024, 09:14:54 AMAs a 4E fan, the irony of you calling 5e a tabletop MMO is joyous (back in 2014 most everyone was saying it had SAVED D&D after the MMO edition).

4e was just like an MMO as well.  That's why I have left D&D for the OSR.  WOTC has destroyed D&D.

It's fine your like 4e.  If it's fun for you, great.  4th nor 5th edition is not for me.

There is no such thing is badwrongfun.

I just created a 1st Level Human 4E Ranger, with an Archery Focus.  It yielded: 28 HP, Stacking to Hit Bonuses for Ranged and Melee Attacks, 9 Healing Surges per Day for 1/4th of Total HP restored each time, Stacking Bonuses for different types of Saving Throws, Bonus for Perception Checks, etc.  That doesn't even include Daily, Encounter, or At Will Powers.

That's a 1st Level Starting Character.  Wow.  That would be a 5th or 6th Level Character, in some rulesets.  And 4E had 30 Character Levels.

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:49:22 AMI just created a 1st Level Human 4E Ranger, with an Archery Focus.  It yielded: 28 HP, Stacking to Hit Bonuses for Ranged and Melee Attacks, 9 Healing Surges per Day for 1/4th of Total HP restored each time, Stacking Bonuses for different types of Saving Throws, Bonus for Perception Checks, etc.  That doesn't even include Daily, Encounter, or At Will Powers.

That's a 1st Level Starting Character.  Wow.  That would be a 5th or 6th Level Character, in some rulesets.  And 4E had 30 Character Levels.

Numbers are only relevant to the system they're in.

For comparison in 4E, a 4E Kobold (level 1 Skirmisher) has 29 hit points. More than your Ranger. It also has a +8 for its Stealth check which your Ranger needs to beat with their Perception to notice them lying in ambush of you. Without the class skill bonus to Perception you'd never seem them until its too late and even then at level 1 you're probably running even odds on not seeing them hiding).

It also has a +6 to hit (+8 if it catches you flat-footed via ambush or can flank with his buddies) vs. your AC 17 (as an Archery Ranger you most likely have Dex 18 and hide armor). So the level 1 kobold hits you on an 11+ (or a 9+ if it has you surprised or flanked... which it can do easily, because it can shift up to 20' per turn, meaning no opportunity attacks as it moves from out of reach to your opposite side in a single turn).

And it hits you for 1d6+3 base damage, plus 2 extra damage per 5' it shifted before attacking... so on a full shift, which it can do on every one of its turns unless you can immobilize it, it deals an average of 14.5 damage. i.e. a Kobold can drop you from your 28 hit points to dying in two hits (which are landing at least half the time... four kobolds rushing you from ambush and you're most likely down before you can even react).

Now, you do have those nine healing surges, but unlike 5e Hit Dice, those aren't extra healing, they're your CAP on daily healing. You can only benefit from things like healing potions or a cleric's healing word spell 9 times during the day and they only give you back a base of 7 hit points each. Healing Word from a level 1 cleric is most efficient since they can tack an extra 1d6+4 hit points onto that, or just enough to counter ONE kobold hit, but they can only do that twice between short rests and has to cover the entire party.

So, even if used with optimal efficiency of the party cleric restoring every hit point lost, you can only take 11 hits from a kobold in a day. After that not even a level 30 cleric's healing word can help you; your body is at the limit of what it can recover for the day and you need a long rest (which can't be repeated for 16 hours after the six hour long rest) before you can again regain any hit points.

That's definitely NOT a 5th to 6th level character in some ruleset... potentially being killed by a single kobold in under half a minute is pure newbie territory.

* * * *

Heck, even by D&D standards that's on a the weak end. A 1e Ranger starts with 2d8 hp (so about 9) and probably AC 5 or 6 depending on their starter armor and/or shield use. They do about 1d8 with a longsword or 1d6 with a bow.

They also are skilled in Tracking, are only surprised on a 1-in-6 chance (these to probably explain why a 4E Ranger might have a very good bonus to Perception) and can surprise other creatures on a 3-in-6 chance. They also deal +1 damage per ranger level against "giant" type monsters (OSRIC expands this to evil humanoids). Even the 1e Ranger's hit point losses are more easily mitigated, as there is no cap on the limit of magic potions or healing spells they can receive in a day.

By comparison, the 1e Kobold has 1-4 hit points, needs a 16+ on the die to hit the 1e Ranger's AC 5, and only deals 1d4 damage on a hit.

The 1e Ranger is a BEAST compared to the stats of the creatures its fighting.

It can reasonably survive 4 hits from a kobold before dropping and is half as likely to get hit by any given kobold attack than the 4E ranger is and it would take a single kobold an average of 16 MINUTES to drop a ranger who didn't just kill them first (as they can hit that AC 7 kobold on at least a 13+, less with a good stat for their attack roll).

* * * *

This is why numbers in a vacuum mean little. A starting 4E Ranger is seriously threatened by a single kobold warrior while a 1e Ranger is almost certain to defeat a single kobold warrior (and may not even take a hit while doing so).

To me, that is the true measure of a character's abilities in the respective editions; how well they deal with equivalent threats.

Why the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

"I do 15 points of damage!!!"

"OK, but he has 45 HP."

"Oh....."

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

"I do 15 points of damage!!!"

"OK, but he has 45 HP."

"Oh....."

No, it's not meaningless. It gives a less swingly range when the range of the random damage die (often a d6 or a d8) roll is proportionately smaller compared to the overall HP total.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 05, 2024, 01:48:31 PM

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

"I do 15 points of damage!!!"

"OK, but he has 45 HP."

"Oh....."

No, it's not meaningless. It gives a less swingy range when the range of the random damage die (often a d6 or a d8) roll is proportionately smaller compared to the overall HP total.

Pretty much this.

With 1d8, the best result is 8 times better than the worst. That is VERY swingy.

With 1d6+11, the best result is only 41% better than the worst. That is an order of magnitude less swingy than the 1d8 is.

Quote from: Man at Arms on October 05, 2024, 12:53:25 PMWhy the incredible HP bloat for PCs and monsters, then?  If everyone's HP goes up, it's all meaningless; overall.

Also, in 4E, starting hit points are much higher, because it is a base number plus full Constitution score. But the increase per level is similar to other editions: around 4 to 6 added hp per level. Having more hp at the start does mean that there is more room for beings weaker than a starting PC, like an untrained commoner or a cat.

In early D&D, you can have a PC start with 1 or 2 hp, which makes them seem extremely weak - with possibilities like a PC being killed by an angry barmaid or a cat, say. Conversely, high level mundane PCs can seem extremely tough, like falling off a cliff and then dusting themselves off.

This change reduced that differential.