As many know Deep7 has 1PG [One Page Games] (http://www.deep7.com/product.php?cat=1pg) available.
I wonder if have so few rules is something that most player want. It seems to me that players want a rule for everything and feel that a system that doesn't have such is "too restrictive".
As many players see the GM as adversarial, having the GM make up a rule that is not included in the "official" printing is considered "cheating".
Is this an accurate perception?
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I do personally think you can have a good game with a minimalist system and not just in a beer and pretzel sense. However there are few other considerations.
Some players prefer a more detailed systems because it offers a richer gameplay experience - sort of like the difference between checkers and chess. For others the gameplay isn't that important because a roleplaying game for them is about stories and characters rather than equipment and dice rolls. Most players are probably somewhere in between.
The other point you raise is about how rules distribute power between GM and players. You correct in saying that, in most instances in the absence of firm rules, GM fiat takes over. And again, depending on the type of players some will be okay with this and some won't.
However what I want to point out is that minimalist rules does not have to translate into more GM power. If you look at a game like The Pool (freely available here http://www.randomordercreations.com/rpg.htm ) you find a game that while extremely compact actually gives the players much more power than a lot crunchier systems.
Quote from: Soylent Green;280289Some players prefer a more detailed systems because it offers a richer gameplay experience - sort of like the difference between checkers and chess. For others the gameplay isn't that important because a roleplaying game for them is about stories and characters rather than equipment and dice rolls. Most players are probably somewhere in between.
Isn't taking the deciding factor down to the roll of a single D6 setting it firmly in the "Storytelling" camp? Doesn't this then exclude the players that like "gamier" games?
I didn't get the impression that they are being presented as "Storytelling" games. Did I miss something?
So you have basically a Storytelling game that is presented as a Beer&Pretzels GAME, possibly missing the target audience. Therein lies the question, is it viable?
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I wasn't talking about Deep 7 1PG specifically, so maybe you should just disregard my post.
I think the issues of power division between GM and player isn't so much what mechanic you use to decide if an action succeeds or fails, the issue is exactly how you establish what the success means.
For instance, a simple magic system might allow a player on a successful magic roll to cast an illusion. In absence of any other guidelines, how long the illusions lasts, whether or whether this illusion can make the caster invisible is left to the GM to decide. From a players perspective the spell is only as effective as the GM wants it to be and it can lead to misunderstandings.
In a more detailed system, as D&D, the limits of the illusion spell will already be defined in the system. Before the player even casts the spell, he knows what he can expect from it.
The point of using The Pool as an example is that while it is a minimalist system it still gives to the players (rather the GM) ability to interpret a success roll.
Quote from: Soylent Green;280336The point of using The Pool as an example is that while it is a minimalist system it still gives to the players (rather the GM) ability to interpret a success roll.
Well, in every minimalist system, a lot of decisions are left up to the DM. In any game, unless the DM has decided to follow the rules to the letter (an extreme rarity I find) then the player won't know exactly how a given rule is interpreted unless he asks first anyway. A simple question of "how will x work" dispels any confusion instantly.
Obviously, players who play to exhibit their mastery of a given system will absolutely hate them... if only because there "aren't enough options" (as if certain kinds of people in a game world cease to exist when the rules change) or it isn't their favorite system in the first place. Pshaw on that.
Rules light games can absolutely function if you have a fair DM... I suspect more people are playing them than even they realize. Many "proper" RPGs simply have too many rules... in the actual course of gameplay, a lot of DMs ignore so many of them that they are really dipping into "micro" territory.
I've seen DMs that don't ever skip rules either. I've never seen a tabletop game move so slowly.
When I think microgames, the generally-awesome Microlite74 comes to mind. It's not a one page game, per se (I think its three) but it has absolutely everything that is necessary for a combat-based fantasy campaign.
Quote from: Soylent Green;280336I wasn't talking about Deep 7 1PG specifically, so maybe you should just disregard my post.
I am using Deep7's 1PG as an example, as they are presented as a "stripped down" game system.
As they have been out for quite a while, they make a good example of a system that is published, current, supported and yet little heard of.
Why is that? Why in today's fast paced, time constrained world are not games with only 1 page of rules the hottest thing going?
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Quote from: Greentongue;280283I wonder if have so few rules is something that most player want. It seems to me that players want a rule for everything and feel that a system that doesn't have such is "too restrictive".
As many players see the GM as adversarial, having the GM make up a rule that is not included in the "official" printing is considered "cheating".
Is this an accurate perception?
Of some players, perhaps, but certainly not all.
Some gamers prefer "rulings, not rules" approach where the rules are few and situations not covered therein are adjudicated by the referee. Not everyone sees the referee's role as "adversarial."
There are many different preferences among gamers and fortunately there are many flavors of roleplaying games to accomodate them. Finding players with like interests can be the tough part sometimes . . .
Quote from: Greentongue;280352Why in today's fast paced, time constrained world are not games with only 1 page of rules the hottest thing going?
Sometimes rules can be
too thin, perhaps?
You could make up a roleplaying game that says, "Sit down together as a group, and tell a story - if someone wants to take over the story from the storyteller, flip a coin, and the winner continues the story." It has stories and characters and a randomizer and 'player choice', so arguably I just made up a two-sentence roleplaying game.
However, it's not one I'd like to play.
By way of example, I find that I prefer the 64-page
Top Secret rpg to the 496-page 2e
Spycraft -
TS hits my sweet spot, covering what I want covered from a rule book, while
SC is bloated and excessive by my standards.
I don't know that a one-page espionage game would work for me, but I'd be willing to take a look.
Quote from: Greentongue;280352Why is that? Why in today's fast paced, time constrained world are not games with only 1 page of rules the hottest thing going?
In this fast paced, time constrained world, the last thing I need is the time burden from making stuff up from an incomplete game. Which AFAIAC anything weighing in at 1 page would be.
I think in general the idea of a ONE-page game is more gimmicky than anything else; though certainly some rules-systems can be distilled into a very basic format that could probably fit into a single page (Amber, possibly; and the Over The Edge system, being two examples which quickly came to mind).
RPGPundit
Quote from: Greentongue;280283As many know Deep7 has 1PG [One Page Games] (http://www.deep7.com/product.php?cat=1pg) available.
Has anyone played any of the 1PG games? Any thoughts?
The question of viability depends on what you are after. The Deep7 website says these games are designed for one-shots. While a super-lite RPG may be great for a 4 hour beer & pretzels game (yeah RISUS!), they must be judged differently than a game designed primarily for campaign play.
Quote from: Greentongue;280283It seems to me that players want a rule for everything and feel that a system that doesn't have such is "too restrictive".
Don't play with these people.
Quote from: Greentongue;280283As many players see the GM as adversarial, having the GM make up a rule that is not included in the "official" printing is considered "cheating".
Don't play with these people either. In fact, cut their brakelines when possible.
They really ought to give away at least one sample 1PG game. I've been curious about these things but not enough to just throw money at them.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;280691They really ought to give away at least one sample 1PG game. I've been curious about these things but not enough to just throw money at them.
The Yahoo forum Files has fan made 1PG games that are basically the same rules. The biggest difference is that the non-free ones include sample adventures and are "professionally done".
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Thanks.
Link is here. (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/1PG/)
You have to be a member to access the files, and joining is a bit onerous, but at least I had a Yahoo account already. Awaiting owner approval of my membership.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;280703Thanks.
Link is here. (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/1PG/)
You have to be a member to access the files, and joining is a bit onerous, but at least I had a Yahoo account already. Awaiting owner approval of my membership.
If I may pimp my own work, once you get accepted there, "Lost Tales" (in the fanmade section of the files) is my own creation, check it out (I tried to make it as close to a "real" 1PG game as possible, so it will give you a good idea what the official games are like if nothing else). It's fairly standard high fantasy.
Others that stand out are the ones by Simon W and hodagofdoom.
Thanks for the tips. I'll have a look.
Are the different 1pg games compatible with each other? Eg could you use the pirate rules in the Broadsword world?
Just to put in my 2 cents worth, the only 1 page game that I have found useful is the Classic Traveller Ultralite rules by Andy Slack. He had originally written them as a 1 page handout for convention games to get players started.
EDIT: And it seems that it isn't online anymore. The only copy I have is in PDF format that is resisting efforts to Copy & Paste at the moment.
Quote from: Age of Fable;280822Are the different 1pg games compatible with each other? Eg could you use the pirate rules in the Broadsword world?
Each game has the same basic rules, but the attributes and skills may be different. Still, it shouldn't be any problem, you may just need to "re-map" a few skills.
Quote from: Greentongue;280283As many know Deep7 has 1PG [One Page Games] (http://www.deep7.com/product.php?cat=1pg) available.
I wonder if have so few rules is something that most player want. It seems to me that players want a rule for everything and feel that a system that doesn't have such is "too restrictive". =
I feel that you have to take 1PG games at face value. They are quick and easy games that can be whipped out on the fly. suitable for a nights entertainment or as a taste of something different while taking a break from a longer more involved campaign.
for me the best use of a 1pg is to introduce your players to a genre you may like to explore, without a large investment of time and money.
I love Pulp. My players knew little or nothing of the genre. After a lengthy portion of our regular Greyhawk campaign I asked if they would play in a couple of sessions of Dime Heroes (DH is the 1PG pulp game from Deep7)
I printed up some sheets used one of the ready adventures and my guys had a great time. It took ten minutes to make a character. five minutes to get the rules down and we were off and rolling dice.
Because of that session we later ended up running a TS/SI pulp game for quite a while.
If they wouldn't have like the game I would have only been out 4 bucks and a nights worth of play.
as gamers the first thing most of us do when we buy a game is to start tinkering with it, thats part of the fun. If you want to make 1PG more than it is it may or may not hold up depending on your style of play, but as a quick and fun diversion the 1PG system does its job well.