Quote from: Joshua Ford;476672Honestly, are you channelling Koltar? The price isn't the issue for the majority of teenagers in developed countries. Trust us. They'll spend twice that on a computer game that will be played out in a few weeks.

No, sorry, it is an issue, just not the way you might be thinking.  The problem is that a good basic starter RPGis not available in regular stores.  In order for that to change, what you have to change is format (box sets instead of books), distribution (as in, we need to have some) and price-point.  This is not about what the kids would buy, its about WHAT STORES WILL STOCK.  

If you can get a $20-25 introductory D&D box set into wal-mart, you've won half the battle.  The game inside, of course, ought to be a good game in order to help seal the deal of getting people hooked, but that's a second goal after getting the game bought in the first place.

I'm not channeling Koltar, I would like to see Koltar out of a job (no offense, Koltar!  I'm sure your job is fucking sweet; but I would like to see a world where RPGs were sold in department stores, big bookstores and toy stores, not one where they were sold in Geek Specialty Stores For Geeks Who Already Know The Game).

RPGPundit

Quote from: jibbajibba;476674But that is just a book in a box though right. I mean having some character sheets that I could download the template for off the internet or just photocopy out of the back of the book and a 5 dice doesn't seem to justify the box somehow. Also where is you value addes IP. A book can just be ripped of the net. That is why new games have beenie tokens, power cards etc becuase that stuff could be replaced but with much grater effort.
Interesting new Manopoly sets have credit cards and a card reader caculator instead of paper money.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here, or not...

Quote from: Ladybird;476678Basic economies of scale say no, that can never happen.

Basic Monopoly sets are dirt cheap to produce - simple components, R&D costs paid off decades ago, but most importantly it's been a consistent high seller for decades, so Hasbro can order the components in ludicrous quantities, making them incredibly cheap. Investing money in producing Monopoly sets is practically guaranteed to bring in a great return on the investment.

D&D has more complicated components, so those will be more expensive to produce, but it also hasn't been a consistent high seller for years - so the print runs are smaller, which means that they can't take advantage of the same economies of scale Monopoly sets can. It is possible that the market exists, of course, but it's an incredibly risky way to invest money if you don't have that evidence. (The 80's don't count, because you're not trying to sell D&D box sets to the 80's. If you are, then you have a time machine, so why are you piddling about printing RPG's?)

(As very rough figures, the RRP of 2010 Gamma World is $40, and Monopoly Classic is $25; assuming 50% cut at each tier of the three-tier distribution process, that means it costs $10 to produce a GW set and $6.25 to produce a Monopoly set.)

Now, you can cut corners on the D&D set - artwork, reprinting rules from your edition of choice, etc - but the more corners you cut, the less appealing you make it to the market, so the less you are likely to sell.

I don't think you could really do a solid, long-term playable game set for much less than the $35 Pathfinder set, and I'm still slightly amazed they got it that low. That's probably the best we'll see for a very long time.

What I'd be arguing would be for an evergreen set, like Monopoly has; with occasional updates of the art, perhaps, or some "special editions" with thematic art or slight changes/extras, like Monopoly does, but always keeping the main set.  

ONE set of rules, permanently, FOREVER.  Just like almost every other game in the world does.

The biggest mistake RPGs did was not to have their own "Monopoly", or "RISK", if you prefer.

Note that D&D does NOT have more complicated components than monopoly.  It has no components other than the rulebook and maybe some dice and a couple of character or reference sheets.  Not little shoe or iron or top hat, no thousands of houses or hotels, no board, no chance cards. There's no reason why you couldn't make a Box Set with the basic book and some dice, for about $20.
In fact, Wizards did something very similar just now, for $19.99; in other respects, its not what I'm really demanding, its not a true basic set, its certainly not meant to be an "evergreen" product, nor was there sufficient effort to get it out in the mainstream, but its the closest thing we've had in at least 20 years, and it proves my fucking point.  You are out to lunch, you absolutely CAN have a $20 D&D box set.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;476784I'm not channeling Koltar, I would like to see Koltar out of a job (no offense, Koltar!  I'm sure your job is fucking sweet; but I would like to see a world where RPGs were sold in department stores, big bookstores and toy stores, not one where they were sold in Geek Specialty Stores For Geeks Who Already Know The Game).

RPGPundit

No offense taken - I kind of know where you are coming from on this one.

 HOWEVER, in the two months or so before the Holidays start every year our inventory of 'traditional' or traditional-looking family boardgames gets doubled or even tripled for the holidays.

Thats because close to 10 years ago Department Stores stopped selling boardgames and toys for the most part because they assumed the majority of kids had switched over to just playing video games.

Every year almost like clockwork we get parents and grandparents shopping at our store around the holidays who say they are happy we are still in business. They wouldn't be able to find tabletop board or card games of any type if it wasn't for us being in the mall.

What about the TOYS R' Us nearby or TARGET or WAL-MART?  Yes those places sell games - but they haven't heard of 'boardgamegeel.com', they don't sell "MUNCHKIN" or "ZOMBIES!!" (Which helps the local economy - because Twilight Creations is headquartered just across the river in Northern Kentucky!) . Those places also normally don't have anmyone that can chit chat about the games - if thats what the customer wants.


- Ed C.

I still believe that the only reliable way to get new players into the game is to invite them, personally.

For that reason, I don't place as much value on a "starter set" for RPGs, as I would a comprehensive overall resource that is well-presented and organized, like the D&D Rules Cyclopedia.

Random thought inspired by the thread: Gimme a computer game designed to run on a website or social networks or something of that ilk. Make it free. It's a little solo adventure. When I want to invite someone to play who hasn't played before, I can send them a link to that app. They play through the solo adventure and, at the end of it, they can print out a character sheet and bring it to my game.

What tools would actually help and/or encourage DMs to invite new players to their tables?

What tools would help and/or encourage more players to start DMing?

I think having the game emphasize play structures that facilitate an open gaming table is pretty much a gimme.

Quote from: The Butcher;476017Very interesting! Thank you for this post.

There's a very clear rise in prices beyond what one could expect from inflation adjustment. Other than increased emphasis on physical presentation and production values (which I feel are undeniable, at least for today's big players like WotC, Paizo, FFG and WW), to what else could we ascribe this?

Sears catalog is a mail order service.  Amazon is a mail order service.  Amazon prices are about the inflation adjusted prices listed.  For example, it says the inflated price for the PHB would be $20.39, and the 4e version now is $22.99 on Amazon (roughly 10% more). DMG 4e is actually cheaper than the inflated price (same price as the PHB at $22.99, when the inflated price is $29.47).  In fact, the core three books at the inflated price adds up to $70.25, and the actual price from Amazon for the core 3 books for D&D 4e is $68.97 (I.E. cheaper than the rate of inflation).  So I don't see a change.

Folks, there ARE games that are the 'affordable' pricing range: SAVAGE WORLDS Explorer's Edition was only $9.99. GURPS 4/e Lite is FREE for pity's sake!

Heck, even the new DELUXE SAVAGE WORLDS books appears to be right at $25.00 or just under that.

Thats a much better price than all those boring first person-shooter X-Box games.


- Ed C.

Thread Hop

It is always nice when you go into a used book store that is selling old rpg books at half their 1983 price.

To me, unless it is really well done properly priced, a "Game System Starter" type box set is just a rip off.  The original "Red Box" was the start of a chain, each product bringing a new "level" to the game that started with where the previous box left off.

When D&D 3rd first arrive WotC put out this totally crappy box set, for $10 in the states, and it wasn't even "everything" for levels 1-3". The only reason the sold (from what I saw) is kids getting parents or grandparents to spend the $10 instead of the combined $60 for the three core books.

With D&D 3.5 WotC revamped the starter box with plastic minis, and map tiles, and nice dice, but still the game info was not really everything from the PHB for level's 1-3, it was still the really abbreviated version. Looked prettier, cost more. (For a short while a booster of D&D minis was strapped to the box for the same price, raised the value some).

The "Player's Kit" was the softback full PHB, a cardboard character sheet (for copying) and for $30 wasn't bad (the PHB had a price of $20 on it but was never released separately).

The current "Red Box" (which is a lie right there) is NOT the same as the classic "Basic" D&D Red Box.  It's the old 3rd ed starter kit for 4th ed, filled with crap you will be rebuying when you get the real books... and all marketed as the "Return of the Red Box!"  Lies.

Savage Worlds, Like GURPS, has a "Test Drive" (Lite) for download no cost, the "Explorer's Edition" was $10 but it was also 160 page half sized soft back book. So really a 80 page regular book for $10.  Now it's much more expensive (Deluxe Edition).

To me a starter is a starter, gets you started BUT is not something that will get completely replaced by the regular books.  The "4th Ed Essentials" (D&D 4.5 in disguise) were good. The DM kit had stuff in it (and you had to buy the kit, book not available separately).

You want to see a great example of the classic "Red Box"? Go look at Dragon Age: http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/
Box Set 1 (levels 1-5 I believe)
GM Boxed Set
Box Set 2 (requires box set 1 to use).

While I haven't played the game (too many systems already) I've heard great things about how the company is handling the "boxed sets" concept.

Quote from: GamerDude;476980You want to see a great example of the classic "Red Box"? Go look at Dragon Age: http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/
Box Set 1 (levels 1-5 I believe)
GM Boxed Set
Box Set 2 (requires box set 1 to use).

While I haven't played the game (too many systems already) I've heard great things about how the company is handling the "boxed sets" concept.

Dragon Age boxed sets are great. The only problem that these are suffering from is licensing delays. Its hard to generate goodwill with a tiered box set system when you can't say when the next installment will be released with any degree of certainty.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;477017Dragon Age boxed sets are great. The only problem that these are suffering from is licensing delays. Its hard to generate goodwill with a tiered box set system when you can't say when the next installment will be released with any degree of certainty.

Definitely.

I have more or less given up on Dragon Age.  The second box set is "too little too late".

Quote from: Mistwell;476854Sears catalog is a mail order service.  Amazon is a mail order service.  Amazon prices are about the inflation adjusted prices listed.  For example, it says the inflated price for the PHB would be $20.39, and the 4e version now is $22.99 on Amazon (roughly 10% more). DMG 4e is actually cheaper than the inflated price (same price as the PHB at $22.99, when the inflated price is $29.47).  In fact, the core three books at the inflated price adds up to $70.25, and the actual price from Amazon for the core 3 books for D&D 4e is $68.97 (I.E. cheaper than the rate of inflation).  So I don't see a change.

If anything, things have gotten CHEAPER (in many cases).

PHB 1983 = $8.99
PHB inflated to 2011 pricing = $20.39

DMG 1983 = $12.99
DMG inflated to 2011 pricing = $29.47

Total 1983 = $21.98
Total inflated to 2011 pricing = 49.86

Pathfinder Core Retail = $49.99
Pathfinder Core Amazon Discount = $31.49

D&D 4E Core Rulebook Gift Set Retail = $104.95
D&D 4E Core Rulebook Gift Set Amazon Discount = $66.12

D&D 4E PHB Retail = $34.95
D&D 4E PHB Amazon Discount = $23.07

D&D 4E DMG Retail = $34.95
D&D 4E DMG Amazon Discount = $22.99

---

Pathfinder Core Retail deflated to 1983 pricing = $22.04
Pathfinder Core Amazon Discount deflated to 1983 pricing = $13.88

D&D 4E Core Rulebook Gift Set Retail deflated to 1983 pricing = $46.27
D&D 4E Core Rulebook Gift Set Amazon Discount deflated to 1983 pricing  = $29.15

D&D 4E PHB Retail deflated to 1983 pricing = $15.41
D&D 4E PHB Amazon Discount deflated to 1983 pricing = $10.17

D&D 4E DMG Retail deflated to 1983 pricing = $15.41
D&D 4E DMG Amazon Discount deflated to 1983 pricing = $10.14

Since we've assume that the Sears Catalog pricing reflects the "internet discounter" of it's day, it's only fair to use the deflated Amazon pricing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;476784No, sorry, it is an issue, just not the way you might be thinking.  The problem is that a good basic starter RPGis not available in regular stores.  In order for that to change, what you have to change is format (box sets instead of books), distribution (as in, we need to have some) and price-point.  This is not about what the kids would buy, its about WHAT STORES WILL STOCK.  

If you can get a $20-25 introductory D&D box set into wal-mart, you've won half the battle.  The game inside, of course, ought to be a good game in order to help seal the deal of getting people hooked, but that's a second goal after getting the game bought in the first place.

I'm not channeling Koltar, I would like to see Koltar out of a job (no offense, Koltar!  I'm sure your job is fucking sweet; but I would like to see a world where RPGs were sold in department stores, big bookstores and toy stores, not one where they were sold in Geek Specialty Stores For Geeks Who Already Know The Game).

RPGPundit

So the issue isn't actually the cost then? Because the boxed games in department stores are usually around £20-30 (~30-$50) each now, with them being pushed heavily at Christmas. I really can't see people wanting to pick up the basic boxed set though - I think it needs to have some gimmick because you're competing against games that take five minutes to learn the basic rules and get rolled out at parties.

I do think that the speciality stores are required, even though Ed's a terrible advert on here, because the department stores are never going to stock more than the basics. Online is fine but browsing in person is far more likely to get me shelling out.

Final question, which might clarify where you're coming from. Who is the target audience for this Holy Grail of a starter boxset? If it's kids, let me ask some of the ones at school and get some feedback. If it's adults, then I cannot see it happening, regardless of how attractive the set is, or intuitive. There is a lot of history associated with playing boardgames as a group and the DM model doesn't come from there, it's from wargaming with an umpire. And that's a niche hobby. There is no RPG social culture currently existing that supports your proposed model. I hate to say it, but the telling of stories is far older...

Quote from: Justin Alexander;476844Random thought inspired by the thread: Gimme a computer game designed to run on a website or social networks or something of that ilk. Make it free. It's a little solo adventure. When I want to invite someone to play who hasn't played before, I can send them a link to that app. They play through the solo adventure and, at the end of it, they can print out a character sheet and bring it to my game.

What tools would actually help and/or encourage DMs to invite new players to their tables?

What tools would help and/or encourage more players to start DMing?

I think having the game emphasize play structures that facilitate an open gaming table is pretty much a gimme.

I like the ideas you've got here. Not sure where to go at the moment. Thinking about the Facebook app that WOTC produced for D&D, that could have been developed. Maybe build in the opportunity to advernture with others, then something on FB that you can invite others to play in. Construct simple dungeons or the like, let people play with character design. WOW lite, but the key is letting people produce their own world.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;476844Random thought inspired by the thread: Gimme a computer game designed to run on a website or social networks or something of that ilk. Make it free. It's a little solo adventure. When I want to invite someone to play who hasn't played before, I can send them a link to that app. They play through the solo adventure and, at the end of it, they can print out a character sheet and bring it to my game.

What tools would actually help and/or encourage DMs to invite new players to their tables?

What tools would help and/or encourage more players to start DMing?

I think having the game emphasize play structures that facilitate an open gaming table is pretty much a gimme.

Quote from: GamerDude;476980*snip*
You want to see a great example of the classic "Red Box"? Go look at Dragon Age: http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/
Box Set 1 (levels 1-5 I believe)
GM Boxed Set
Box Set 2 (requires box set 1 to use).

While I haven't played the game (too many systems already) I've heard great things about how the company is handling the "boxed sets" concept.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;477017Dragon Age boxed sets are great. The only problem that these are suffering from is licensing delays. Its hard to generate goodwill with a tiered box set system when you can't say when the next installment will be released with any degree of certainty.

Quote from: Joshua Ford;477044*snip*
I like the ideas you've got here. Not sure where to go at the moment. Thinking about the Facebook app that WOTC produced for D&D, that could have been developed. Maybe build in the opportunity to advernture with others, then something on FB that you can invite others to play in. Construct simple dungeons or the like, let people play with character design. WOW lite, but the key is letting people produce their own world.

:hmm:

and yeah, Dragon Age is a great game! Played on "Free RPG Day" and loved it!