TheRPGSite

1. The Fantasy Trip has been locked away in a hermetically sealed chamber since 1982

2. A lot of the artwork is being prepared by one of the essential 70's-80's era roleplaying game artists

3. The official setting amounts to 'everything is possible, and it is your job to figure out what that means'

4. Your characters will definitely die.

5. But that's o.k. because it will take you less time to make a new one than it took me to write this sentence.

6. And every character basically fits on a 3x5 card

7. Yet somehow combat in this game kicks the crap out combat in whatever other game you are currently playing

8. Hyper intelligent armed octopuses

9. Great company that you know will deliver the goods

10. All those OG nerds will be playing it in a couple of months

I have a copy of the original and have been trying it out with friends. Our impression is that it is not bad but not is clear cut as to it advantages other than it terseness.

Comments

I get the feeling there some emergent tactics due to the interplay of the turn order and whether a combatant is engaged or not engaged. However not seeing it so far. I think it there but need better explanation and illustration.

So far combat as consisted of running up and bashing each other. Or shooting missile weapons if we had them. But like I said their a hint of something more but we are just not seeing it.

Definitely thinking that the megahex system is being over used and it use as a basis for mapping is going to be a negative factor in its acceptance. Now to be clear it use as way to account for range and area effect is fine. Nor do I think it would be a problem if the maps used a hex grid with the megahex boundaries marked in bold lines. But if they insist on mapping all the labyrinth i.e. dungeons with megahex based tiles it will give it a niche feel.

On a most positive note I do like the simplicity of character creation for example. I just got a copy of the original In The Labyrinth and found the talent system very nicely done. A lot like how AGE handles things or the original set of D&D 3.0 feats. And I like both especially AGE.

And the nice thing about Talents that you get a number of them at the start of the campaign.

Not really sold on the ever increasing attributes but really takes running a campaign to see how it works out.

Movement and maneuver is a strong point of the game; it is the only roleplaying game I've every played that has a 'chess like' feeling of interaction between the decisions made by various combatants. This is most obvious when you have fights with 3 or more combatants on a side, and both players understand enough about the game to make use of the different properties of pole arms, missile and thrown weapons, and magic (which is highly tactical as compared to most other games). I'm not sure why there are things about this you are still puzzling out, but I'd suggest just playing in a competitive mode with a few combatants per side for an hour or two and it should become obvious.

The hex-based maps can be approached in one of two ways: Either go all-in with the idea that you actually map dungeons (and similar spaces) as tessellated hexes; or superimpose a hex grid onto a 'normal' dungeon map. The first of these is how most of the original materials are presented, and I agree it results in something that is pretty niche (though I find it charming, and it obviously 'works' in a purely gamist sense). The second is how I've always made my own maps of dungeons, cities, etc., and I'd say it is the approach most people would settle on if you left them to their own devices. I have been of two minds about how the new edition should approach this issue. I think in the end I'm glad they seem to be sticking with the original design, which retains the look and feel of the original game, and doesn't prevent me from doing whatever I want in my own games (there is no meaningful rules implications for just putting a hex overlay on a normal map, other than that you have to decide how partial hexes work).

Could someone correct a possible misconception?

Back in the day, I watched a Melee fight where one character on his turn would run around to the rear of the other character and attack from behind. The other character on his turn would react and change facing, only to next round be run around and attacked from behind. That struck me as absurd. Maybe the players were playing something wrong. I don't know, but it's a very strong negative impression of the game to me.

And I have backed the Kickstarter, whether I ever will actually play the game, the game has good stuff in it and is worth supporting.

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1052321Back in the day, I watched a Melee fight where one character on his turn would run around to the rear of the other character and attack from behind. The other character on his turn would react and change facing, only to next round be run around and attacked from behind. That struck me as absurd. Maybe the players were playing something wrong. I don't know, but it's a very strong negative impression of the game to me.

You have one set of options if you are engaged in combat i.e. within one hex of an opponent. You have another set when you are not.

My current reading of the allowed actions while engaged is that you can shift one hex as your max move. So what you witnessed was not RAW.

One thing I sussed out is that in order to retreat I had to take a disengage action shift away one hex so I am no longer engaged. Then hope that next round I win initiative so I can do a full move away from my opponent. Otherwise on their move the opponent will move next to be me and I am once again engaged.

Quote from: estar;1052323You have one set of options if you are engaged in combat i.e. within one hex of an opponent. You have another set when you are not.

My current reading of the allowed actions while engaged is that you can shift one hex as your max move. So what you witnessed was not RAW.

One thing I sussed out is that in order to retreat I had to take a disengage action shift away one hex so I am no longer engaged. Then hope that next round I win initiative so I can do a full move away from my opponent. Otherwise on their move the opponent will move next to be me and I am once again engaged.

Do pole arms have reach? Otherwise, yea, maybe I saw something that wasn't valid, very likely the game was being played wrong, but is sure left an impression and a sour taste.

Frank

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052318I'm not sure why there are things about this you are still puzzling out, but I'd suggest just playing in a competitive mode with a few combatants per side for an hour or two and it should become obvious.

The issue is figuring out how  to use the rules in terms of tactics. The rules themselves are simple enough. So far the impression is that you pretty much go up and bash each other. We agreed that if we added terrain and multiple combatants it would be a little more interesting.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052318The second is how I've always made my own maps of dungeons, cities, etc., and I'd say it is the approach most people would settle on if you left them to their own devices.

It what I did with GURPS for a long time. Until I got Cardboard dungeon and saw how they quashed hexes to make it fit a rectangular grid. It made translating dungeon maps so much easier.

So I did one of my own.

http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Hex%20Grid%20Sheet.pdf

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Quote from: Larsdangly;1052318I have been of two minds about how the new edition should approach this issue. I think in the end I'm glad they seem to be sticking with the original design, which retains the look and feel of the original game, and doesn't prevent me from doing whatever I want in my own games (there is no meaningful rules implications for just putting a hex overlay on a normal map, other than that you have to decide how partial hexes work).

I am currently 3 for 3 with different groups of gamers going "Huh? OK that weird.".

Quote from: ffilz;1052321Could someone correct a possible misconception?

Back in the day, I watched a Melee fight where one character on his turn would run around to the rear of the other character and attack from behind. The other character on his turn would react and change facing, only to next round be run around and attacked from behind. That struck me as absurd. Maybe the players were playing something wrong. I don't know, but it's a very strong negative impression of the game to me.

And I have backed the Kickstarter, whether I ever will actually play the game, the game has good stuff in it and is worth supporting.

Frank

This isn't a thing. It is possible to get to an opponent's flank or rear hexes and strike with advantage, particularly when there are several opponents on a side and everyone has to make tricky decisions about where they move and how they face. But when two able-bodied opponents face off on an open field it is not possible to repeatedly run around to a rear hex side. If you did, you would get 'stuck' when you engaged your foe. One thing that COULD happen in this system is that you could run around to the side or rear of a foe and jab at him or her with a pole arm. That foe could turn in place to face you, so there wouldn't be much purpose to this (unless it exposed him to a threat from another direction...), but you could do this turn after turn, provided the target didn't step forward one hex to engage you. Nevertheless, the strategy you describe cannot occur if you play by the rules.

Quote from: estar;1052325The issue is figuring out how  to use the rules in terms of tactics. The rules themselves are simple enough. So far the impression is that you pretty much go up and bash each other. We agreed that if we added terrain and multiple combatants it would be a little more interesting.

If you have only two opponents facing off and both have only reach-1 melee weapons and do not wish to shield-rush or engage in HTH combat, then it is true the game devolves to head-to-head attack rolls. That is basically a reflection of the fact that it is 1 step more abstract than GURPS (though quite a few combinations of gear and/or talents open up tactical decisions even in this case). Where tactical decision making gets important is if one or both combatants have different weapon systems (missiles vs. thrown vs. unarmed vs. pole arms vs. melee weapons vs. fire vs. magic, etc.), there is terrain involved (even walls you might back someone into), or there are more than 2 combatants interacting with each other. If any of these things are true, then things open up quite a bit.

Quote from: ffilz;1052324Do pole arms have reach? Otherwise, yea, maybe I saw something that wasn't valid, very likely the game was being played wrong, but is sure left an impression and a sour taste.

Frank

It original Melee no but the length of the polearm confers important benefits in certain situation. For example you do double damage if you charge an enemy with a polearm. You get +2 to DX if a enemy charges you while wielding a polearm. There are various situation where polearms grant an advantage beyond just whacking away.

Remember the order of attack may be different than the order of movements. This makes the interplay of combatants different than most other RPG combat systems in a good way.

In advanced Melee, SJ added the jab which allow the polearm to attack two hexes away. But the engagement zone is still only the ring of hexes around the character.

I think the new TFT will have things folded into together so it is a safe bet jab will be part of the base rules.

Quote from: Larsdangly;105231110. All those OG nerds will be playing it in a couple of months

Possibly.  The real test will be if they're still playing it a year after that.

O.k.; I should add a footnote to #10 that skeptics can go read the concurrent 'Is 5E a fad' thread for other possibilities...

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052327This isn't a thing. It is possible to get to an opponent's flank or rear hexes and strike with advantage, particularly when there are several opponents on a side and everyone has to make tricky decisions about where they move and how they face. But when two able-bodied opponents face off on an open field it is not possible to repeatedly run around to a rear hex side. If you did, you would get 'stuck' when you engaged your foe. One thing that COULD happen in this system is that you could run around to the side or rear of a foe and jab at him or her with a pole arm. That foe could turn in place to face you, so there wouldn't be much purpose to this (unless it exposed him to a threat from another direction...), but you could do this turn after turn, provided the target didn't step forward one hex to engage you. Nevertheless, the strategy you describe cannot occur if you play by the rules.

Ok, glad to hear whatever I observed was not correct application of the rules.

Even if it was, I think common sense can easily repair the problem. I think facing is a good thing, but obviously people who are not otherwise engaged can turn fast enough to keep up with a normal person trying to circle them even if they can't strike or move or anything else. So I look forward to perusing the new rules to see what sorts of tactical goodness are there to be used in the games I play that don't have such detailed tactical movement rules (like RuneQuest).

Frank

Combat in TFT is best played strictly by the rules, or strictly by whatever clearly specified house rules you might introduce, rather than by intuitive interpretation of circumstances. This is because the rules are simple but quite concrete and intentionally 'gameable'. It is just like chess in this respect. Chess is cool and fun to play, but wouldn't go well if you used your intuition to decide how far a bishop could move or whether a pawn could take a knight. You might have your reasons, but the result would be a different game that is won with different strategies.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052343Combat in TFT is best played strictly by the rules, or strictly by whatever clearly specified house rules you might introduce, rather than by intuitive interpretation of circumstances. This is because the rules are simple but quite concrete and intentionally 'gameable'. It is just like chess in this respect. Chess is cool and fun to play, but wouldn't go well if you used your intuition to decide how far a bishop could move or whether a pawn could take a knight. You might have your reasons, but the result would be a different game that is won with different strategies.

I get that mostly, but if there are rules that create really odd situations, and you want to use the system in an RPG as opposed to a board game, then the GM may need to arbitrate situations.

Consider that almost any RPG rule probably has a situation where the rule doesn't make sense and blindly following the rules creates jarring outcomes.

Frank

Thank you, I wasn't aware there's such a KS:)!

Quote from: Larsdangly;10523111. The Fantasy Trip has been locked away in a hermetically sealed chamber since 1982

2. A lot of the artwork is being prepared by one of the essential 70's-80's era roleplaying game artists

3. The official setting amounts to 'everything is possible, and it is your job to figure out what that means'

4. Your characters will definitely die.

5. But that's o.k. because it will take you less time to make a new one than it took me to write this sentence.

6. And every character basically fits on a 3x5 card

7. Yet somehow combat in this game kicks the crap out combat in whatever other game you are currently playing

8. Hyper intelligent armed octopuses

9. Great company that you know will deliver the goods

10. All those OG nerds will be playing it in a couple of months

In other words, nostalgia is the only reason.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1052379In other words, nostalgia is the only reason.

Yep, pretty much.  I've already owned this game before.  It's cute but it's no more realistic than D&D and is less fun imo.  And you're kidding yourself if you think sjg is going to be supporting it much.  They just churn out 47 different flavors of Munchkin anymore.

That's all right; it's best if snarky sour-pusses keep away from your table anyway. More space for people who like games.

What happened to "produce something and sell it?"
I remember The Fantasy Trip from its first time around the block. It was OK, although no one in our area actually ever ran it. Several of us bought copies and discussed it and I remember suggesting that someone who wasn't running anything at the moment run it, but no one did.
Why should I buy it before they have a product?
I Kickstarted C.J. Carella's first novel and I don't regret it. But he was as broke as I was, actually broker.
Why should I pay an established company for something that they have yet to produce.
I realize that SJG is not a fly-by-night which is not going to produce the game; this isn't a matter of distrust.

There are no hexes in fantasy!!!

:D

It's a great little game and always clicked with me. And I didn't discover it until 2005 so it's not nostalgia. This game works (it's designed by Steve Jackson after all) and yes it mainlines a 1970s gaming vibe but that's hardly a bad thing.

4 Reasons not to:

1) Other companies have produced retro-clones of TFT (and adventures), companies that do it for the love of the game and not Kickstarter money
2) Much of TFT's marketing (still to this day) is "D&D sucks!" which frankly was trite in the late 1970s.
3) SJ loved TFT so much that he took what, 30 years to get it back? Is he even into RPGs anymore? When was the last time he personally wrote something for GURPS? Hell, does anyone produce anything for GURPs anymore? Seems kinda dead.
4) While TFT is a fun enough micro-game of arena combat, and works fine for "programmed" adventures, it kinda sucks as an actual RPG (though better than GURPS)

The negativity in this thread is off the charts...advise a few people to open the blinds and let in a bit of sunshine! Nobody is holding a gun to your head to support TFT, but stuff like "Steve Jackson ignored the game for 35 years so it must suck" is pretty off base (he was shut out from the IP and is republishing it at the first opportunity).

I played TFT back in the day and it does arena combat really well, but I remember there being a math hack that got abused to much.

It's GURPS-lite fantasy and I remember we had plenty of fun non-dungeon games with it. We did Roman / Greek myth stuff instead of LotR stuff. Make more sense to us since hex dungeons were weird.

Though hex caverns were cool.

Quote from: mhensley;1052384And you're kidding yourself if you think sjg is going to be supporting it much.

Support will depend on success. At the moment, the project is performing well enough that we have started notes/discussions for an expansion to take to Kickstarter in early 2019, after we have shipped this game to project backers.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1052392Why should I pay an established company for something that they have yet to produce.
I realize that SJG is not a fly-by-night which is not going to produce the game; this isn't a matter of distrust.

The world has changed. And, more importantly, the game industry has changed. Many products are one-shots in today's market, periodicals that come and go from a retailer's shelves quickly, replaced by the next new thing.

At the office, our approach depends on titles getting more than a 30-day shot. So, as have many, we are using crowdfunding for some of the projects that are on the line; The Fantasy Trip has been off the market for so long that we had no way to judge true demand. Kickstarter gives us the tools to produce the correct product at the quantity needed.

Quote from: JeremyR;10524002) SJ loved TFT so much that he took what, 30 years to get it back?

This is a misunderstanding of the legal issues surrounding the game. What I can say:

When Steve was legally able to secure the rights to The Fantasy Trip, he did.

Quote from: estar;1052326It what I did with GURPS for a long time. Until I got Cardboard dungeon and saw how they quashed hexes to make it fit a rectangular grid. It made translating dungeon maps so much easier.

I worked on that project. I spent a few weeks working with the art that Loubet provided, going Photoshop-mad crafting all sorts of little bits and pieces and assembling the package. That feels like a lifetime ago.

Quote from: philreed;1052412I worked on that project. I spent a few weeks working with the art that Loubet provided, going Photoshop-mad crafting all sorts of little bits and pieces and assembling the package. That feels like a lifetime ago.

I enjoyed using it and thought the grid layout to be a excellent compromise between hexes and squares. Now that you are selling the PDF, at some point you guys should think of maybe packaging it and selling in a form useful for Virtual Tabletops. Both Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds have stores now. Basically it would mean making each piece a separate graphics and aligning it along a standard pixel size for the square portion of the grid.

I understand the urge to answer all that nonsense, Phil, but you have to remember not to feed the numerous and unusually mean spirited trolls that hang out here. There are only a few of them but they post constantly, make up all kinds of nonsense, and rarely have anything good to say about anything. Just be glad none of the SJG threads has turned into a SJW rant (yet...)

I particularly enjoyed the bizarre drive-by about there being no hexes in real OSR games! The Judge's Guild OSR Authenticity Task Force would probably have something to say about that.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052442I particularly enjoyed the bizarre drive-by about there being no hexes in real OSR games! The Judge's Guild OSR Authenticity Task Force would probably have something to say about that.

We may indeed may have something to say about that :)

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I see all the trolls and curmudgeons came out to protest the existence of TFT Kickstarter. God forbid someone actually want to republish a cool game.

Quote from: philreed;1052411This is a misunderstanding of the legal issues surrounding the game. What I can say:

When Steve was legally able to secure the rights to The Fantasy Trip, he did.

  Jackson's desire to get the rights back and inability to do so at a reasonable price have been documented as far back as 1990 (Heroic Worlds, Lawrence Schick).

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1052448Jackson's desire to get the rights back and inability to do so at a reasonable price have been documented as far back as 1990 (Heroic Worlds, Lawrence Schick).

And before that; Fantasy Gamer #1 (1983) also includes Steve talking about trying to recover the rights.

"Because I agree that it would be a shame for the system to die (and because I'd personally like to bring it back), I've written Metagaming with an alternative proposal involving a reasonable royalty. By the time you read this, I'll either have finalized an agreement, or given up trying. Next issue I should be able to tell you what happened."

http://thefantasytrip.game/news/2018/july/from-fantasy-gamer-where-were-going/

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052442I understand the urge to answer all that nonsense, Phil, but you have to remember not to feed the numerous and unusually mean spirited trolls that hang out here.

I am personally a fan of being as open as possible and, when able, responding to questions and comments. At times, the responses are less about satisfying the original poster with an answer and more about getting the info out where others can see it. Many more people read than engage.

Quote from: Brad;1052447I see all the trolls and curmudgeons came out to protest the existence of TFT Kickstarter. God forbid someone actually want to republish a cool game.

It is a cool game. My issue is "why don't they just republish it?" And that has been answered, to some extent. However, I still prefer to buy things that actually exist. I'm seventy-three.

Quote from: philreed;1052410The world has changed. And, more importantly, the game industry has changed. Many products are one-shots in today's market, periodicals that come and go from a retailer's shelves quickly, replaced by the next new thing.

At the office, our approach depends on titles getting more than a 30-day shot. So, as have many, we are using crowdfunding for some of the projects that are on the line; The Fantasy Trip has been off the market for so long that we had no way to judge true demand. Kickstarter gives us the tools to produce the correct product at the quantity needed.

Thanks for answering and good luck with it.

Quote from: Brad;1052447I see all the trolls and curmudgeons came out to protest the existence of TFT Kickstarter. God forbid someone actually want to republish a cool game.

Yeah, they did:).

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1052456It is a cool game. My issue is "why don't they just republish it?" And that has been answered, to some extent. However, I still prefer to buy things that actually exist. I'm seventy-three.

Can't fault you for that. But then KS isn't really for you, which is a shame!

Either way, you can always wait for the product to hit the shelves (which might be virtual shelves, but most products have a POD option;)).

I have Legends of the Ancient World and Heroes & Other Worlds.  I know TFT was the original, but other than that (supporting SJG), why do I need it if I have these other games, which are clones of it?

Quote from: Joey2k;1052471I have Legends of the Ancient World and Heroes & Other Worlds.  I know TFT was the original, but other than that (supporting SJG), why do I need it if I have these other games, which are clones of it?

Good question. There are a couple of reasons why I tried those on for size and returned to 'canonical' TFT. Legends of the Ancient World has an excellent line solo modules and associated maps and markers, and they are approximately compatible with the original game, but the system that drives the game is a kind of 'sketch' of the original with quite a bit of the detail removed (gear, spells, items, beastiary, rules for peculiar weapons and situations, etc.). I'm not sure what the right comparison is here, but I would say it is to TFT as Holmes D+D is to 1E AD+D or something.

HOW is a more complicated comparison because its creator put out an unbelievable shit ton of material in the form of monster and spell books and conversions of D+D settings. I wrote a long, detailed review you can find on rpg.net. The punch line is its a good game, but it has a couple of differences that make it incompatible with either Legends or canonical TFT. The introduction of an Endurance stat; quite different ranges of core stats; different requirements for weapons. And, it drops the hex-map based movement and maneuver in combat, which is a lot of what makes TFT. It also has some peculiarities that just look to me like design errors (the weapon tables - both original and revised - are weirdly statted, with most of the weapons clearly worse than one or two favored ones). It is a game that looks pretty good and has a lot of 'stuff' in it, but I stopped playing soon after I tried it out. Also, you will spend as much on it as you would buying TFT. And it seems to be out of development for a couple of years (at least), so it might now be abandoned.

My feeling is that the right move is to get TFT and fold in the catalogue of modules from Legends, with light adaptations needed to make the talents and spells mutually compatible.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052473Good question. There are a couple of reasons why I tried those on for size and returned to 'canonical' TFT. Legends of the Ancient World has an excellent line solo modules and associated maps and markers, and they are approximately compatible with the original game, but the system that drives the game is a kind of 'sketch' of the original with quite a bit of the detail removed (gear, spells, items, beastiary, rules for peculiar weapons and situations, etc.). I'm not sure what the right comparison is here, but I would say it is to TFT as Holmes D+D is to 1E AD+D or something.

HOW is a more complicated comparison because its creator put out an unbelievable shit ton of material in the form of monster and spell books and conversions of D+D settings. I wrote a long, detailed review you can find on rpg.net. The punch line is its a good game, but it has a couple of differences that make it incompatible with either Legends or canonical TFT. The introduction of an Endurance stat; quite different ranges of core stats; different requirements for weapons. And, it drops the hex-map based movement and maneuver in combat, which is a lot of what makes TFT. It also has some peculiarities that just look to me like design errors (the weapon tables - both original and revised - are weirdly statted, with most of the weapons clearly worse than one or two favored ones). It is a game that looks pretty good and has a lot of 'stuff' in it, but I stopped playing soon after I tried it out. Also, you will spend as much on it as you would buying TFT. And it seems to be out of development for a couple of years (at least), so it might now be abandoned.

My feeling is that the right move is to get TFT and fold in the catalogue of modules from Legends, with light adaptations needed to make the talents and spells mutually compatible.

Appreciate the analysis!

However, this:

QuoteHOW...drops the hex-map based movement and maneuver in combat

is a feature to me, not a bug.  That, plus the fact that I've already invested a good bit of money into setting and source books for it, means I'll probably stick with HOW.

Thanks for the insights though.  And I've sworn off rpgnet, but I'll make an exception and look for your review.

I get it. The concrete tactical nature of 'canonical' TFT is really one of those things you are either up for or not. Of course you can play it as a 'theater of the mind' game, but the intended purpose is clearly focused on the maps and chits/figures.

hey, Lars you mention it in your rpgnet review discussion thread, but did you review Raedwald? Just, ya know, curious. :D

Quote from: Weru;1052524hey, Lars you mention it in your rpgnet review discussion thread, but did you review Raedwald? Just, ya know, curious. :D

Raedwald alone is reason to get Heroes and Other Worlds!  Extremely well done Weru.  I hope Jackson has reached out to the Brandons to perhaps write an adventure or supplement for Fantasy Trip, rather than some other type of discussion with them.

Quote from: Kuroth;1052528Raedwald alone is reason to get Heroes and Other Worlds!  Extremely well done Weru.  I hope Jackson has reached out to the Brandons to perhaps write an adventure or supplement for Fantasy Trip, rather than some other type of discussion with them.

Thank you, I appreciate that. It would be great if SJG published some of Christopher's HOW stuff. Chris is very passionate about TFT, has championed it via HOW throughout the wilderness years, does good work, and is an all round top bloke and great to work with. A real gent.

Quote from: Weru;1052530Thank you, I appreciate that. It would be great if SJG published some of Christopher's HOW stuff. Chris is very passionate about TFT, has championed it via HOW throughout the wilderness years, does good work, and is an all round top bloke and great to work with. A real gent.

Well said Weru.  I'll drink to that!

My broher  Got  me into Melee  and Wizard  when  they first came out... I still have my Games  and the  advance books. I used to  write  my own solo games...including  one I tried to get  accepted by another  game CO  that was close to TFT  style....Its massive, with  a  few changing rooms  and the 'quest' part changes from game to game.. fell short though because of  editing,..and I never  tried to re-edit after my wife passed...I look forward to susing it  with  the  new  games to see how it works.

Quote from: AsenRG;1052469Yeah, they did:).


Can't fault you for that. But then KS isn't really for you, which is a shame!

Either way, you can always wait for the product to hit the shelves (which might be virtual shelves, but most products have a POD option;)).

For an grumpy old fart curmudgeon, I'm pretty comfortable with e-books, so that's the format I will probably get.  I used the first version to modify the "D&D" campaign I was running way back then and there is probably "legacy code" from it in my current rules. I will be interested in seeing the update.

What if I don't give a shit about TFT.

edit: *facepalm*  I'm sorry, you said OSR, not old school gamer.  Sorry, I misunderstood you.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1052552What if I don't give a shit about TFT.

You probably won't want to learn more, then, about the game.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052509I get it. The concrete tactical nature of 'canonical' TFT is really one of those things you are either up for or not.

It kinda makes me think of Descent . . . but from before Descent's time.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052473HOW is a more complicated comparison because its creator put out an unbelievable shit ton of material in the form of monster and spell books and conversions of D+D settings. I wrote a long, detailed review you can find on rpg.net. The punch line is its a good game, but it has a couple of differences that make it incompatible with either Legends or canonical TFT. The introduction of an Endurance stat; quite different ranges of core stats; different requirements for weapons. And, it drops the hex-map based movement and maneuver in combat, which is a lot of what makes TFT. It also has some peculiarities that just look to me like design errors (the weapon tables - both original and revised - are weirdly statted, with most of the weapons clearly worse than one or two favored ones). It is a game that looks pretty good and has a lot of 'stuff' in it, but I stopped playing soon after I tried it out. Also, you will spend as much on it as you would buying TFT. And it seems to be out of development for a couple of years (at least), so it might now be abandoned.

Hi, Lars. I appreciated your review of Heroes & Other Worlds. It convinced me to purchase HoW when I was on the fence. I very much enjoy using TFT (have done so since the Metagaming modules first came out), but I also appreciate many of the changes that HoW has made that have made it a bit more to my liking for longer campaign play (e.g., adding the Endurance stat, etc.). However, I do recall your mentioning in your review your concern with the weapons table, and now you have repeated that concern here in this thread. Could you explain what you see as the problem with them? I'm not asking to challenge, but am genuinely curious from a game design perspective what's at stake with the changes HoW made. I can clearly see that they're different in Strength requirements and in Damage rolls, but I'm not quite grasping the significance in the differences and why it might adversely affect gameplay. I'd appreciate your insight.

Quote from: JeremyR;10524004 Reasons not to:
1) Other companies have produced retro-clones of TFT (and adventures), companies that do it for the love of the game and not Kickstarter money

What an odd thing to say.  SJG is not Wizards of the Coast with $$$ up the wazoo.  Re-launching TFT is a BIG project, and this gives them the necessary capital to get it moving.  

Quote from: JeremyR;10524002) Much of TFT's marketing (still to this day) is "D&D sucks!" which frankly was trite in the late 1970s.

I really haven't seen that much, except in response to asshats who dis TFT by claiming IT sucks and D&D is the one twue way.  Overall, the main selling points seem to be; Fast, fun and elegant, not "not D&D."

Quote from: JeremyR;10524003) SJ loved TFT so much that he took what, 30 years to get it back? Is he even into RPGs anymore? When was the last time he personally wrote something for GURPS? Hell, does anyone produce anything for GURPs anymore? Seems kinda dead.

Really?  Educate yourself, man.  We have these things in America called Copyright laws, and since he'd sold Copyright to Metagaming back in about 1980, he couldn't legally touch TFT.  Under the Copyright laws, however, if an author has not received any remuneration from a property for 35 or more years, then the author can seek to have his rights restored.  Which is what Steve Jackson did.  I don't know how you speed that process up, but apparently you do, so please share.  Also, on GURPS, Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarted last year, and has had a slew of new products coming out over this past year.  Just because you aren't paying attention doesn't mean things aren't happening.

Quote from: JeremyR;10524004) While TFT is a fun enough micro-game of arena combat, and works fine for "programmed" adventures, it kinda sucks as an actual RPG (though better than GURPS)

Different strokes, and all that jazz, but since my experience differed vastly in terms of the quality of the RPG experience from yours, I'll just go ahead and chalk your experience up to lousy GM-ing.

Quote from: philreed;1052409Support will depend on success. At the moment, the project is performing well enough that we have started notes/discussions for an expansion to take to Kickstarter in early 2019, after we have shipped this game to project backers.

Shameless!
 
Phil's being modest.  The Fantasy Trip is probably one of the best supported (re-)releases ever.  Visit your favorite game store and peruse all the GURPS books full of setting and story and other generic gaming goodness, much of which works perfectly well in TFT.  Spend some time online at Warehouse 23 browsing the GURPS digital background books and other content.  Other folks have already mentioned the many TFT fan websites with fun discussions, articles and adventures.  Don't forget existing third party generic content -- my group had great fun adventuring in the Columbia Games HARN universe with its gorgeous maps and Encyclopedia Harnica, while using MELEE, WIZARD and ITL for our game mechanics.  

The people who created all that fun content now know who to go to for legal permission to produce licensed and other products in the TFT universe.  That's HUGE.  I'm hoping third party content becomes at least as big as the SJG content.  It's not impossible.  We probably won't hear much about it until after the KICKSTARTER clears its finish line and we're all drooling on our keyboards as we dig into the PDF.

Quote from: Brad;1052447I see all the trolls and curmudgeons came out to protest the existence of TFT Kickstarter. God forbid someone actually want to republish a cool game.

It is the how of it and some may be still irked about some of SJGs past behavior over reprints or even stuff not theirs. Yeah.

Its nice to see it get a reprint and looks like they even got Liz to do some more art.

Quote from: Omega;1052595Its nice to see it get a reprint and looks like they even got Liz to do some more art.

Liz has been fantastic to work with! And she really got into the project, doing more work than we first expected.

Are you guys talking about Liz Danforth?

Quote from: Kuroth;1052649Are you guys talking about Liz Danforth?

Yes, Liz Danforth did artwork and tokens for the original. I'm a big fan of hers as Tunnels & Trolls was my first game. Love her work.

I still HAve T&T solo games  that features  Liz Danforth's work.

Should be able to round up a few Tunnels & Trolls folks, with her working on it.  I didn't recall she was on the original Fantasy Trip.  Very cool indeed.

Good old Tunnels & Trolls Donsr .  Welcome to the rough and tumble side of RPG discussion that is therpgsite!

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052473HOW is a more complicated comparison because its creator put out an unbelievable shit ton of material in the form of monster and spell books and conversions of D+D settings. I wrote a long, detailed review you can find on rpg.net. The punch line is its a good game, but it has a couple of differences that make it incompatible with either Legends or canonical TFT. The introduction of an Endurance stat; quite different ranges of core stats; different requirements for weapons. And, it drops the hex-map based movement and maneuver in combat, which is a lot of what makes TFT. It also has some peculiarities that just look to me like design errors (the weapon tables - both original and revised - are weirdly statted, with most of the weapons clearly worse than one or two favored ones). It is a game that looks pretty good and has a lot of 'stuff' in it, but I stopped playing soon after I tried it out. Also, you will spend as much on it as you would buying TFT. And it seems to be out of development for a couple of years (at least), so it might now be abandoned.

The design errors aren't minor -- the book's digest-sized, but I still managed to find at least 1 typo per tiny page. Collectively those errors were so significant, I never did figure out how how Heroes & Other Worlds was supposed to work. I'm not familiar with The Fantasy Trip, so the clone may make sense to those who were already familiar with the game, but even my familiarity with GURPS didn't help.

Quote from: Kuroth;1052662Should be able to round up a few Tunnels & Trolls folks, with her working on it.  I didn't recall she was on the original Fantasy Trip.

And don't forget that Steve's first professional RPG work was on Monsters! Monsters! back in 1976. He wrote about that recently:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_29_2018/Monsters_Monsters

The DNA of Tunnels and Trolls and TFT are deeply intertwined, despite the differences in their mechanics. In a review I wrote a couple of years back I described TFT to the uninitiated as a little like T+T re-imagined as a hex and chit board game. What I was thinking at the time was that both TFT and T+T have a loose, creative, kind of goofy world view, lots of solo 'choose your own adventure' modules, simple descriptions of characters, with just a few parameters and class-like categories, rises in stats as your main mechanism of improving, and perhaps a few other similarities (not least of which Liz's art!). I would still stand by that description. Anyone who likes T+T will probably appreciate TFT. And, if you like T+T's vibe but don't like its abstract combat, TFT's hex and chit approach might be just your thing.

Quote from: philreed;1052679And don't forget that Steve's first professional RPG work was on Monsters! Monsters! back in 1976. He wrote about that recently:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_29_2018/Monsters_Monsters

Thank you for coming in and answering some questions philreed, we do definitely appreciate it. The "negativity" to Larsdangly's hard sell approach was turning people off of TFT, particularly after he decided that anyone so turned off had to be a "troll".

Quote from: philreed;1052679And don't forget that Steve's first professional RPG work was on Monsters! Monsters! back in 1976. He wrote about that recently:

http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archive/July_29_2018/Monsters_Monsters

Monsters! Monsters! is great fun! I've run several con game 1 shots of M!M! over the years (including my Mordor "Sauron's dead, now what do we do?" adventures). For those who don't know the game, M!M! is a Tunnels & Trolls variant where you play the Monsters and go on adventures, usually looting and pillaging and getting stabbed by pesky heroes. In actual play, its 3 Stooges meets Pulp Fiction via LotR.

Quote from: jeff37923;1052686Thank you for coming in and answering some questions philreed, we do definitely appreciate it.

My pleasure! If I have missed any questions, please let me know.

The project has now topped the $200,000 mark and, with 11 days to go and a few more surprises to reveal, it's my personal hope that we can hit the $300,000 mark before the campaign comes to an end. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying

Man, that would have been fun to be working on Monsters! Monsters! back in the day like Steve.  So many awesome games made since those days and many more yet to come.

I bet you'll all make that 300,000 goal Phil!

Quote from: estar;1052323One thing I sussed out is that in order to retreat I had to take a disengage action shift away one hex so I am no longer engaged. Then hope that next round I win initiative so I can do a full move away from my opponent. Otherwise on their move the opponent will move next to be me and I am once again engaged.

You probably haven't found the rule that says that before you roll initiative, you can declare you are fleeing and move first as long as you really do run away.

Quote from: Skarg;1052758You probably haven't found the rule that says that before you roll initiative, you can declare you are fleeing and move first as long as you really do run away.

That only an option if you are disengaged. My character was engaged at the time so could only take a step (one hex) and move away from the opponent. Also that rule found in Advanced Melee, I was using Melee while trying it out.

Here's the rule, from Advanced Melee:  "If figures are fleeing from a foe-that is, if they are disengaged, and have spent the previous turn in running away they automatically get initiative if and only if they use it to continue their escape"

Your interpretation of that depends on whether a disengage action counts as spending a turn running away. If so, then you can definitely disengage one round and claim initiative to start running the next. If not, then you must disengage, win initiative and use it to run away, and only then can you claim initiative on the third and subsequent turns. Either interpretation would be reasonable; I would say the rules don't make it clear which was intended by the author.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052769Here's the rule, from Advanced Melee:  "If figures are fleeing from a foe-that is, if they are disengaged, and have spent the previous turn in running away they automatically get initiative if and only if they use it to continue their escape"

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052769Your interpretation of that depends on whether a disengage action counts as spending a turn running away. If so, then you can definitely disengage one round and claim initiative to start running the next. If not, then you must disengage, win initiative and use it to run away, and only then can you claim initiative on the third and subsequent turns. Either interpretation would be reasonable; I would say the rules don't make it clear which was intended by the author.

Maybe. I concur that it is unclear.

The Disengage rule states that during your movement you can stand still or shift one hex away to another hex next to the engaged opponent. Then as your action you can move away one hex.

So while only one hex the rules consider movement to be the expenditure your MA. Doesn't seem to make a distinction between running or walking how much MA needs to be spent to be consider one or the other. On the other hand the Disengage movement of one hex is a result of an action not the expenditure of MA. So is it really movement per the rules. As such one could say it not running away so to speak.

There are implications to both interpretations. Going one way means doing a disengage will allow the figure retreating to automatically win initiative all the time.  Going another way means there is a final chance for the opponent to reengage the figure retreating. If the opponent wins initiative.

Of the two I think I like the latter as being more representative of how things work in life.

So a $25 pdf or $110 complete physical game set, correct?  And the reward levels are not easy to parse for someone who's never heard of the game.  If the pdf is a complete game, why do I want Melee and Wizard?  Are they add-ons to the rpg, or separate board games, or precursors ala the first Rolemaster books, or what?  If it's not a complete game, what's the lowest tier that is?

I'm not totally opposed to backing a game I may or may not ever get to play, but can someone can give me a better pitch than "hey, it's awesome!"  What makes it awesome for someone who's never played it and doesn't worship Steve Jackson?

That's correct, and there is also a $60 option between those two. The most economical way to get the full version of this game and then play it as intended (with a hex map and some kind of markers) would be to buy the softcover full volume and then separately find something like a Chessex hex map as a play surface and pull together your own set of miniatures. The reason to get Melee and Wizard is that you will be provided with the playing pieces (markers for combatants and so forth) and some maps. A reason to get the boxed set is that you will get additional modular hex map pieces with diverse shapes so you can quickly lay out hallways, rooms, etc. on the table top. Another reason to get the full package is you will then get the solo adventures (Deathtest I and II which will also add to your marker set) and the GM'd dungeon (Tolenkar's lair) as well as the companion (containing a bunch of old material from 80's era magazines, and some new material). My experience of the game is that it can be played as a 'theater of the mind' sort of thing, but is more fun to play with 'hardware' (hex maps and markers or miniatures). If you don't have a big miniatures collection, the cardboard markers will be your most economical way to do that.

Also, there are a number of things that make TFT unusual (in good ways). Perhaps the most noticeable is that it uses hex and chit board games as its game design starting point, and the result is a tactical combat game that is surprisingly rich despite having a pretty simple set of rules. It's just a lot of fun to play out fights in the system. Second, a related point, it has the most tactical magic system I've seen - basically spell casting is totally woven into tactical combat, and visa versa. Third, the way characters are created and described is sort of like GURPS if GURPS were written as an early edition of D+D - all the concepts of complex modern games are there (point buy, few barriers to constructing hybrid character types, etc.), but it all feels very simple and stream lined and fast. Another thing you notice once you start playing is that it is very lethal. The reason is that the game was designed as a competitive gladiatorial combat game, so the expectation is that both sides can lose. This means you have to get used to the idea that some (or all!) of your characters will get chewed up, but it also makes for very exciting, competitive feeling adventures. All in all, its a pretty unusual experience.

No it's not just $25 or $110. You could just get the basic Melee game for $15, and get counters, a map, and the basic combat rules. That's how I started in 1980, but it cost $2.95 then.

The $25 comes with PDFs of everything (I think including maps and counters, so if you feel like saving money and printing your own counters, or just using miniatures, and don't mind PDF rules, that gets you everything but nothing physical).

Or if you want a physical book and will use your own hex maps and counters or miniatures, then you could just get the $25 In The Labyrinth book, which is the full RPG rules including a superset of the rules in the basic Melee & Wizard games. You just wouldn't get the adventures, counters, screen, 6-sided dice, record sheets, or the Space Gamer reprints and bonus materials in the $15 book with the cool octopus cover.

$60 would get you counters & maps, the full RPG rules and the adventures and screen and character sheet pads, all PDFs, but not the fancy 1.5" hex mats, nor the octopus companion book.

$110 also gets you a hardcover ITL book (in addition to the softcover ITL book - same content twice), the battlemats and the octopus companion book.

Quote from: Dave R;1052788What makes it awesome for someone who's never played it and doesn't worship Steve Jackson?

It's a very well-designed game and/or RPG, which offers interesting deadly mapped tactical gameplay that's like what you can get from GURPS or a good tactical wargame or skirmish-level miniatures game, but has short rules that are easy to learn.

The quality of that game made me balk at practically every other RPG I saw after getting into TFT. Tastes vary, but I'd give it a try.

TFT is an easy sell to a group which likes tactical minis combat...and is cool with high death rates.

That's really your "do I buy or not?" qualifier. Fans of tactical minis combat will find lots to like in TFT. AKA, if you have players who love combat, love minis, love maps and enjoy the competition of deadly violence, then pledge the Kickstarter.

If I had a group who wanted to play GURPS Fantasy, I'd run TFT for them instead...and they'd be happy bastards (except that one dude who owns all the GURPS books but nobody likes him).

Quote from: Dave R;1052788So a $25 pdf or $110 complete physical game set, correct?  And the reward levels are not easy to parse for someone who's never heard of the game.  If the pdf is a complete game, why do I want Melee and Wizard?  Are they add-ons to the rpg, or separate board games, or precursors ala the first Rolemaster books, or what?  If it's not a complete game, what's the lowest tier that is?

It depends on your level of DIYness.

* $25 - PDF. You'll get all of the Legacy Edition content, plus the Companion, but as digital files. You have to print/construct your own maps and counters and supply your own dice.

* $30 - The PDF + you get physical copies of the Melee and Wizard microgames. These each include a map and counters.

* $60 - PDF + Legacy Edition, which includes Melee and Wizard. You'll get megahex die-cut sheets, two solitaire adventures with counters, a GM screen.

* $110 - PDF + Legacy Edition + two playmats + a hardcover of the 160-page In the Labyrinth book (which is included as a softcover in the Legacy Edition box, so you would have two copies), as well as a softcover of the Companion book.

Do you enjoying printing, mounting, and cutting counters and craft projects? The PDF at $25 may be your best choice.

Do you want to get everything that is being printed? The $110 is the way to go.

Also: Options in between those two extremes which may/may not suit your needs.

For anyone wanting to know more about the stretch goals, we have posted a "stretch goal report" that outlines all the things:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying/posts/2262946

That's over three dozen stretch goals already unlocked, 18 of which have already been fulfilled.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1052395There are no hexes in fantasy!!!

:D

No sir! My fantasy is made of hexes!

Quote from: philreed;1052832It depends on your level of DIYness.

* $25 - PDF. You'll get all of the Legacy Edition content, plus the Companion, but as digital files. You have to print/construct your own maps and counters and supply your own dice.

* $30 - The PDF + you get physical copies of the Melee and Wizard microgames. These each include a map and counters.

* $60 - PDF + Legacy Edition, which includes Melee and Wizard. You'll get megahex die-cut sheets, two solitaire adventures with counters, a GM screen.

* $110 - PDF + Legacy Edition + two playmats + a hardcover of the 160-page In the Labyrinth book (which is included as a softcover in the Legacy Edition box, so you would have two copies), as well as a softcover of the Companion book.

Do you enjoying printing, mounting, and cutting counters and craft projects? The PDF at $25 may be your best choice.

Do you want to get everything that is being printed? The $110 is the way to go.

Also: Options in between those two extremes which may/may not suit your needs.

So the $30 includes ALL the PDFs? So for $5 more plus shipping we get two boxed games (so get a bunch of counters which is the most significant craft project...)? Sounds like a deal.

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1052865So the $30 includes ALL the PDFs? So for $5 more plus shipping we get two boxed games (so get a bunch of counters which is the most significant craft project...)? Sounds like a deal.

Yep. The main page lists the $30 Melee/Wizard option as including the Legacy Edition PDF, which is all the content.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'm still confused.  How does In the Labyrinth relate to the "complete" rules of Legacy Edition?  "Legacy" is the new edition, and "Labyrinth" is the old rulebook, included for compleatists?  Maybe?

I still don't know what the lowest/cheapest tier is for the complete game.  I read the reward levels before I first posted, so restating those reward levels doesn't help, I'm telling you this whole thing is pretty cryptic for someone with no previous exposure.  Edit:  I mean, I understand $25 is a playable game minus physical counters and hex maps, but then I don't understand why there are other "rules" available, and if I'm going to want them eventually anyway.

Quote from: Dave R;1052886I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'm still confused.  How does In the Labyrinth relate to the "complete" rules of Legacy Edition?  "Legacy" is the new edition, and "Labyrinth" is the old rulebook, included for compleatists?  Maybe?

The game is three parts:

* Melee - Bash things with your sword, tactical combat game.
* Wizard - Blast things with your spells, tactical combat game.
* In the Labyrinth, the roleplaying rules and setting, including the Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard rules.

You can play Melee or Wizard by themselves, as skirmish games, or combine them. Or, if you wish, combine all three for roleplaying.

Does that help?

I think one of the great features of TFT is the subtle tactical nuances of its hex based wargame-like play.  So I understand theater of the mind people not really digging it or understanding what the hype is all about.  That said, I like HOW and Raedwald, and think TFT stands up on its own as a very solid rules-lite RPG even without the hexes.  Basically, if you like tactical wargame in your RPG, TFT is a great game, if you don't then it is still a good rule-lite rpg.

Quote from: Dave R;1052886I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I'm still confused.  How does In the Labyrinth relate to the "complete" rules of Legacy Edition?  "Legacy" is the new edition, and "Labyrinth" is the old rulebook, included for compleatists?  Maybe?

I still don't know what the lowest/cheapest tier is for the complete game.  I read the reward levels before I first posted, so restating those reward levels doesn't help, I'm telling you this whole thing is pretty cryptic for someone with no previous exposure.  Edit:  I mean, I understand $25 is a playable game minus physical counters and hex maps, but then I don't understand why there are other "rules" available, and if I'm going to want them eventually anyway.

Pilreed covered it.  But to further clarify - TFT began as a boardgame, not as an RPG. The original game was Melee, and it was a mini-boardgame of tactical man to man combat.  Wizard came out next and it was a mini tactical boardgame of wizards and magic that was compatible with Melee.  Neither were RPGs, though they effectively made a combat system and magic system.  In the Labyrinth was a  book that combined the two into an RPG and included things like character development, monsters and adventuring.  Melee and Wizard were also republished in book form, without the maps and counters, as Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard to create a more or less complete RPG.

Quote from: Kuroth;1052528Raedwald alone is reason to get Heroes and Other Worlds!  Extremely well done Weru.  I hope Jackson has reached out to the Brandons to perhaps write an adventure or supplement for Fantasy Trip, rather than some other type of discussion with them.

I agree about Raedwald.  I finally got it this past Christmas and really like it.  I concur with the well done.  Still looking forward to Wulfwald too.

Quote from: Weru;1052530Thank you, I appreciate that. It would be great if SJG published some of Christopher's HOW stuff. Chris is very passionate about TFT, has championed it via HOW throughout the wilderness years, does good work, and is an all round top bloke and great to work with. A real gent.

He also did the solo adventure Wolves on the Rhine for Dark City Games.

Quote from: philreed;1052892The game is three parts:

* Melee - Bash things with your sword, tactical combat game.
* Wizard - Blast things with your spells, tactical combat game.
* In the Labyrinth, the roleplaying rules and setting, including the Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard rules.

You can play Melee or Wizard by themselves, as skirmish games, or combine them. Or, if you wish, combine all three for roleplaying.

Does that help?

No, that is the opposite of helpful.  What then is the Legacy Edition pdf?  Is it a pdf containing Melee, Wizard, In the Labyrinth, and Tollenkar's Lair, i.e., all the contents of the Legacy Edition box @$60?  Or is it some subset thereof?

Edit:  Okay, from the kickstarter page, if you scroll way down, it seems like the pdf is everything from the $60 physical level, but only in pdf.  So anything above $25 would be for physical components + books, correct?

And "Legacy" edition isn't a new version, it's a reissue?

Apologies for beating a dead horse, but that KS page was not written with new converts in mind.  I suspect the author was too close to the product.

The Legacy edition is a new edition. From information we have from the author's company forums, we should expect the basic structure and most of the content of the game to be closely similar to the original, but it is being fully edited, re-organized, and there are some subtle looking but significant changes. It is a new edition. I expect this will be true of all three major components (Melee, Wizard, In The Labyrinth).

The information on the web site seems to me to clearly state that if you get the PDF you get everything that would go into the Legacy Edition package in pdf form. You obviously won't get physical components like maps and markers and dice. It isn't clear to me whether you would get a pdf form of the markers and maps. If they give you a pdf form of the dice I'ld be curious to hear what you do with it...

While I think OSR fen might well be interested in TFT, I  don't think it fits the definition of an OSR game. Mind you, I don't think that's a criticism. Tweaking D&D is not, in my opinion, the only good approach to game design. TFT, when it came out, was quite original and owed little to D&D, except that D&D created the hobby.

Quote from: Dave R;1052918No, that is the opposite of helpful.  What then is the Legacy Edition pdf?  Is it a pdf containing Melee, Wizard, In the Labyrinth, and Tollenkar's Lair, i.e., all the contents of the Legacy Edition box @$60?  Or is it some subset thereof?

Edit:  Okay, from the kickstarter page, if you scroll way down, it seems like the pdf is everything from the $60 physical level, but only in pdf.  So anything above $25 would be for physical components + books, correct?

And "Legacy" edition isn't a new version, it's a reissue?

Apologies for beating a dead horse, but that KS page was not written with new converts in mind.  I suspect the author was too close to the product.

The new Kickstarter page confuses me too in some ways. Though I understand almost all of it, it's complicated and keeps changing.

I'm not entirely clear what all they mean or don't mean by "Legacy Edition", but I do get that:

* There is no reissue of the original circa-1980 versions.
* There is only really one version of the rules being published (unless you count the Melee & Wizard basic "mini-game" versions, which is where the counters are).
* Legacy Edition is the name of one Kickstarter backer level, which gets you a Legacy Edition boxed set.
* The "boxed Legacy Edition" refers to a boxed set that contains:

QuoteThe two original mini-games, Melee and Wizard, each in its own mini-box.
    The three roleplaying books (In The Labyrinth, Advanced Melee, and Advanced Wizard), combined and updated into a single volume of 160 pages, with the index that the original release lacked.
    The classic dungeon-crawl adventure, Tollenkar's Lair, with a full-color labyrinth map and color cover.
    Death Test, the solo adventure, with color cover.
    Death Test 2, a second solo adventure, with color cover.
    Six sheets of die-cut megahexes.
    A pad of 2.5" x 3.5" character sheets for use with Melee.
    A pad of 5" x 3.5" character sheets for use with Wizard.
    A three-panel, sturdy GM screen.
    Maybe more, depending on what stretch goals are reached. Read on!

My guess is that "Legacy Edition" refers just to that boxed set, and may continue to be called that when they later sell some in stores and/or online. And, that the books will continue to be available as individual products or PDF too, but some or all of them will cost more than they do during the Kickstarter.

TFT is absolutely OSR, double for its retroclone. That said, the major faction of the OSR are AD&D Revivalists so they're not the target for TFT. But among the rest of the OSR factions, exploring TFT is absolutely of interest - especially for its proto-GURPS roots.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052922The Legacy edition is a new edition.

Okay, did not catch this.  Thought it might have been at one point, then got too much info about the original release.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052922The information on the web site seems to me to clearly state that if you get the PDF you get everything that would go into the Legacy Edition package in pdf form.

In fairness, it does say that, and if I'd scrolled down far enough I could have skipped my first post.

In some fairness to me though, I thought "what's the lowest level that has the complete game" was a reasonable and straightforward question.  I see now Skarg managed to answer me, but I got so much other info I missed the point.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052922If they give you a pdf form of the dice I'ld be curious to hear what you do with it...

Heh.  I suppose some day kickstarters will come with 3d printer templates standard, but that's probably still a little ways off.

Quote from: Dave R;1052918What then is the Legacy Edition pdf?  Is it a pdf containing Melee, Wizard, In the Labyrinth, and Tollenkar's Lair, i.e., all the contents of the Legacy Edition box @$60?

Yes.

Quote from: Dave R;1052918So anything above $25 would be for physical components + books, correct?

Yes, with one exception: A softcover printing of The Fantasy Trip Companion is only included at no charge in the I Want It All level. The $25, $30, and $60 levels do include that title in PDF.

Quote from: Dave R;1052918And "Legacy" edition isn't a new version, it's a reissue?

No. The Fantasy Trip Legacy Edition is the overall package, the retail box that will be sold in stores.

There is no reissue. Steve only recovered the rights to the text, not the art or graphics, so there is no exact reprinting of the original titles.

Does that help?

Quote from: Skarg;1052940I'm not entirely clear what all they mean or don't mean by "Legacy Edition",

The Fantasy Trip Legacy Edition is the name of the big box that will be shipped to distributors next year. This is, at the moment, a 10" x 12" box that includes Melee, Wizard, In the Labyrinth (softcover), Tollenkar's Lair, Death Test, Death Test 2, a GM screen, and assorted other bits.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1052931While I think OSR fen might well be interested in TFT, I  don't think it fits the definition of an OSR game.

That will depend on how you personally define OSR. If, for you, OSR = only D&D and variants, then The Fantasy Trip is not OSR. If, however, you define OSR as "any game from the earliest days of roleplaying," it is my opinion that TFT lands exactly under the OSR label.

The Fantasy Trip To Open To Creators in 2019 Via Limited Publishing License

In 2019, the world of Cidri, the official setting for Steve Jackson's The Fantasy Trip roleplaying game, expands as everyone is invited to contribute adventures (solo and game mastered), area writeup and history, monsters, characters, treasure, and more to the game.

In celebration and support of the return of The Fantasy Trip, Steve Jackson Games will release a limited publishing agreement for the game in 2019.

Under the terms of the license, writers and illustrators will be able to create original PDFs for sale on Warehouse 23, the Steve Jackson Games web store, and earn royalties for the sale of those works. All PDFs offered for sale under this agreement will have the right to use the world of Cidri and the TFT game mechanics, all under an official "Compatible with The Fantasy Trip" logo.

The limited publishing license will provide fans of The Fantasy Trip with more support than Steve Jackson Games alone can manage, as well as offering creators an opportunity to showcase their talents and transform their ideas into official PDFs.

Please watch thefantasytrip.game for more information on the upcoming TFT Limited Publishing Agreement.

This is really big news for people interested in the OSR community's approach to D+D-like games over the last decade or so. That community has turned out an unbelievable volume of highly creative, very well produced, affordable gaming materials. Honestly, the best ~quarter of what is coming out now is better than what we had from TSR and Judge's Guild in the late 70's. This announcement means there is an avenue for doing the same kind of grass-roots creative work for TFT. The playing field is narrower (i.e., Warehouse 23 rather than just setting up your own Lulu or Drive-through page) and the implication is that there will be profit sharing (though that also happens at DtRPG and Lulu...). Nevertheless, it sounds like a green light to get together your own stuff and put it out there.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052954The playing field is narrower (i.e., Warehouse 23 rather than just setting up your own Lulu or Drive-through page) and the implication is that there will be profit sharing (though that also happens at DtRPG and Lulu...). Nevertheless, it sounds like a green light to get together your own stuff and put it out there.

We want to keep a close handle on things at the beginning. If this goes well, and once we have the process flowing, we will explore other outlets and expanding the reach of titles produced under this license.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1052954This is really big news for people interested in the OSR community's approach to D+D-like games over the last decade or so. That community has turned out an unbelievable volume of highly creative, very well produced, affordable gaming materials.

The only fly in the ointment are the exact terms. It boils to basically this

1) I can take my Scourge of the Demon Wolf, rewrite it for TFT and release on Warehouse 23. Continue to sell the Swords & Wizardry version elsewhere and perhaps a 5th edition version elsewhere as well. Or take the Deceits of the Russet Lord adventure I been working on release it  on Warehouse23 and for Swords & Wizardry elsewhere.

2) It like the DM's Guild where the work and all its derivatives can only be published on Warehouse23 unless SJ Games otherwise buys it outright or give permission.

If it is #1 then I see a subset of OSR publishers supporting TFT. It is a lite system both in terms what what expected in the way of stats and in actual mechanics so it is a good fit.

If it is #2, then virtually nobody from the OSR will bother with it. Most of the 3PP TFT authors will be a fresh crew so to speak and the 3PP will definitely be a niche of niche.

Either way there will be 3PP products however #1 will have a much more diverse range of offerings as the barriers of participation will be so much lower.

Because the 3PP Traveller Aid Society adopted #2 DM's Guild approach its is a wasteland compared to Cepheus. While TFT has clones it not not analogous situation. Instead what to be avoided is what happened with Cypher, Cortex, and other 3PP product
that don't have strong and popular setting.

What won't be a factor is restricting TFT products to Warehouse23.

Limiting things to Cidri may be an minor issue but Cidri as stated in In the Labyrinth is setup to be the ultimate kitchen sink world. I don't think it going to be a problem, one could always say the adventure or region is set halfway around the planet or something like that. Or that it is in the future or past of Cidri.

Quote from: philreed;1052966We want to keep a close handle on things at the beginning. If this goes well, and once we have the process flowing, we will explore other outlets and expanding the reach of titles produced under this license.

Make sense, personally I don't see being limited to Warehouse23 at first being an issue.

Quote from: philreed;1052945Yes, with one exception: A softcover printing of The Fantasy Trip Companion is only included at no charge in the I Want It All level. The $25, $30, and $60 levels do include that title in PDF.

Oh, bummer, so the only way to get the companion in any form is the I Want it all Level?

I think it would be helpful to increase clarity in exactly what is included in PDF form at the various levels.

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1052990Oh, bummer, so the only way to get the companion in any form is the I Want it all Level?

The Companion is part of the $25 PDF reward. If you want it in print, you can:

* Back at the $110 reward and pay nothing extra.
* Add $15 to your pledge.

Hopefully, that clears things up a bit.

Quote from: philreed;1052991The Companion is part of the $25 PDF reward. If you want it in print, you can:

* Back at the $110 reward and pay nothing extra.
* Add $15 to your pledge.

Hopefully, that clears things up a bit.

Oh, oops, I read a NOT into this sentence that was not there:

QuoteThe $25, $30, and $60 levels do include that title in PDF.

So the PDfs include everything in digital form except the dice? Counters, the various hex mats and maps, the mega hexes, and all?

Since I upped to the $30 level, I'll even get some dice, and with a low cost dice add-on, I'll probably add on some dice... Dice are fun...

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1052997So the PDfs include everything in digital form except the dice? Counters, the various hex mats and maps, the mega hexes, and all?

Maps, megahexes, and counters are included in the PDF rewards, yes.

Quote from: philreed;1052892The game is three parts:

* Melee - Bash things with your sword, tactical combat game.
* Wizard - Blast things with your spells, tactical combat game.
* In the Labyrinth, the roleplaying rules and setting, including the Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard rules.

You can play Melee or Wizard by themselves, as skirmish games, or combine them. Or, if you wish, combine all three for roleplaying.

Does that help?

I've never quite understood the relationship between Melee, Wizard and In the Labyrinth. Melee and Wizard are each stand alone board games, capable of being used alone or combined, but is In the Labyrinth a stand alone RPG book duplicating the basic rules from Melee and Wizard, or is it just an RPG supplement that requires the "board games" to play? Understand the maps and counters only come in Melee / Wizard but there are plenty of ways to get maps and counters / figures.

I'm currently at $75 ($60 + 15 for the printed companion), trying to figure out how much utility a second copy of In the Labyrinth would be if I bumped to $110. I'm indifferent to the large maps so it would be all about the hardback.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1053176I've never quite understood the relationship between Melee, Wizard and In the Labyrinth.

Imagine if the D&D combat system and some of the character creation rules was a standalone melee combat wargame first.

Now take the D&D magic rules and again enough of the character creation rules to handle magic was as a standalone wargame involving dueling wizards.

Then you get people saying hey these two wargame would make a great RPG.

So you add some rules to Melee and called Advanced Melee. Added some rules to Wizards and called it Advanced Wizard. Then wrote a book that supplied every other section that a RPG had like monster, creations, overall character creation rules, etc. That In the Labyrinth.

All three combined is the The Fantasy Trip RPG.

Quote from: estar;1053180Imagine if the D&D combat system and some of the character creation rules was a standalone melee combat wargame first.

Now take the D&D magic rules and again enough of the character creation rules to handle magic was as a standalone wargame involving dueling wizards.

Then you get people saying hey these two wargame would make a great RPG.

So you add some rules to Melee and called Advanced Melee. Added some rules to Wizards and called it Advanced Wizard. Then wrote a book that supplied every other section that a RPG had like monster, creations, overall character creation rules, etc. That In the Labyrinth.

All three combined is the The Fantasy Trip RPG.

So if I am understanding you correctly, not the same relationship between Man to Man and GURPS, where MtM was just a combat game (and early teaser to GURPS) but is not needed to play GURPS.  

In the Labyrinth is not a stand alone game book and does require the prior two games to be complete. Having a second book is, kind of like buying a second Players handbook, some utility but it is not a complete second set of the rules.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1053181So if I am understanding you correctly, not the same relationship between Man to Man and GURPS, where MtM was just a combat game (and early teaser to GURPS) but is not needed to play GURPS.  

In the Labyrinth is not a stand alone game book and does require the prior two games to be complete. Having a second book is, kind of like buying a second Players handbook, some utility but it is not a complete second set of the rules.

That was true of the original In the Labyrinth where Advanced Melee supplied the combat system and Advanced Wizard supplied the magic system.

The new one folds AM, AW, and the original ITL into one book. Melee and Wizard are standalone wargames.

From the Kickstarter

QuoteThe three roleplaying books (In The Labyrinth, Advanced Melee, and Advanced Wizard), combined and updated into a single volume of 160 pages, with the index that the original release lacked.

Quote from: estar;1053228That was true of the original In the Labyrinth where Advanced Melee supplied the combat system and Advanced Wizard supplied the magic system.

The new one folds AM, AW, and the original ITL into one book. Melee and Wizard are standalone wargames.

From the Kickstarter

Thank you

As we enter the final days of the Kickstarter campaign, we've revealed the Melee/Wizard Pocket Box stretch goal. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying/posts/2267512

That's a pretty cool final (?) stretch goal - exactly the sort of thing a lot of people were suggesting as an alternative approach to the revised formats of the 'core' materials of the new edition. Now we have a shot at both! If you've been holding out, this is your 'now or never' time. The whole thing has gotten pretty crazy - I think it would cost a couple hundred bucks at least to buy all the stuff that will be in the 'I Want it All' package at typical current retail prices. Plus, you probably won't be able to get some of them at any price if you don't get them now, if the equivalent Ogre special boxed set is an indication.

Quote from: philreed;1053476As we enter the final days of the Kickstarter campaign, we've revealed the Melee/Wizard Pocket Box stretch goal. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sjgames/the-fantasy-trip-old-school-roleplaying/posts/2267512

Hmm, it would be cool to have this as a print option instead of the new printing of Melee/Wizard at the $30 level... I'd actually prefer the original size maps/counters.

Frank

Quote from: Larsdangly;1053481The whole thing has gotten pretty crazy - I think it would cost a couple hundred bucks at least to buy all the stuff that will be in the 'I Want it All' package at typical current retail prices.

Yes. Total retail value of that is likely around $200 at the moment. The Legacy Edition is probably going to be between $80 and $100 in distribution, the playmats at the prices listed as add-ons (but only direct, not in distribution), the hardcover another $35 to $40, the Companion $15 or $20, the Pocket Box, if it happens, $20 or so. The folders are also unlikely to go into distribution if those goals are met.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1052942TFT is absolutely OSR, double for its retroclone. That said, the major faction of the OSR are AD&D Revivalists so they're not the target for TFT. But among the rest of the OSR factions, exploring TFT is absolutely of interest - especially for its proto-GURPS roots.

It's certainly related to the OSR's interests.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1053875It's certainly related to the OSR's interests.

Considering Melee (1977) and Wizard (1978) are the core of The Fantasy Trip (1980), sure aligns with OSR in my mind! Good to see others think the same way.

Last 7 hours, gang! If you ever wanted an OSR style roleplaying game that comes with its own toys to fiddle with on the table top, this is your chance.

Got mine ordered, very excited for March!

Word is that the first pdf's for Melee and Wizard will go out almost immediately, and the full pdf set will go out in October. Don't hold them to that in detail, but this is the sort of time line that's been discussed on the forums. That means we'll all be up and playing in weeks, while they are off getting all the hard copy stuff manufactured.

$300k...wouldn't have believed it, but this is gonna be great.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1053919Word is that the first pdf's for Melee and Wizard will go out almost immediately, and the full pdf set will go out in October. Don't hold them to that in detail, but this is the sort of time line that's been discussed on the forums. That means we'll all be up and playing in weeks, while they are off getting all the hard copy stuff manufactured.

I was wondering about that, thanks for sharing the info.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1053919Word is that the first pdf's for Melee and Wizard will go out almost immediately, and the full pdf set will go out in October. Don't hold them to that in detail, but this is the sort of time line that's been discussed on the forums. That means we'll all be up and playing in weeks, while they are off getting all the hard copy stuff manufactured.

Oh, nice!!!  It that actually happens that will make me a happy man.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1053919Word is that the first pdf's for Melee and Wizard will go out almost immediately, and the full pdf set will go out in October.

Not _quite_ immediately, but we do expect to send out the Melee and Wizard PDFs in mid-September.

Quote from: philreed;1054093Not _quite_ immediately, but we do expect to send out the Melee and Wizard PDFs in mid-September.

Two big thumbs up.

Quote from: Brad;1053945$300k...wouldn't have believed it, but this is gonna be great.

It doesn't surprise me. Even among people who have never as much as read it, TFT has a bit of a legendary quality in "early RPG history".