Quote from: blakkieSeriously, this is so BW territory. First off BW deals very well with PCs failing at something, and there are a pack of noobs just looking for a place to fail.

Gee, I never had trouble with character's botching something up in D&D, RoleMaster or GURPS... Care to elaborate why failing in BW is oh so joyful?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAny others?  Any twists or turns anyone can think of?

Weather.

Remember in the Antonio Banderas movie about the vikings how they got all prepared for the massive battle, they'd built the defenses of the town up and just as the enemy showed himself, the rains started.

Rain.  Fog.  Overcast days.  Wind.  Lightning.  Thunder.  

The weather can cast your mood and accentuate your roleplaying points.  And when it's all over, like a perfect cliche to end it all, you can have the sun climb out of the clouds, the green of the landscape perk up and lighten everyone's mood.

Quote from: SosthenesGee, I never had trouble with character's botching something up in D&D, RoleMaster or GURPS... Care to elaborate why failing in BW is oh so joyful?

Because it is built into it that the story turns on failure.  For example when you use "Circles" to try to contact or find someone if you succeed "yah!", if you fail you find them (at GM choice) but a new complication also comes with it (they hate you, you owe them money, etc.)  Basically it reenforces that there be at least two playable paths away from a conflict, one for victory and one for defeat.  That's really the gist of the whole game, it keeps everyone focused on what your game is about (whatever you chose to make it about). Right up in your grill about it.

But you could always drop the $25 for the core book bundle (Character burner is a second for character generation, but it's only sold with the core book) and read it?

Quote from: I sense a certain undercurrent in your posts.

Well at first I just flipped to the Man Lifepaths and looked through the list, because it does organize them by "setting" which has LP split by peasants/villagers/cities (and seafaring/military/nobles/etc.) separate.

But the more you talked about it, the more it fit. If you plan to run it for a while it fits a lot better because while you will likely see stat/skill point increase per session the power climb is a lot slower and even. Plus you can, and usually do, increase skills a fair amount without suddenly becoming hardened soilders of war (well, relatively speaking ). Oh, and when I said 3 Lifepaths I'm thinking that you'd take your Born Villager or whatever, and then Woodcutter twice (you can have multiples of LP) otherwise you are just running teenagers/tweenagers who are really weak. It's tough play 2 LP characters so it's not recommended for beginners.

P.S. Ironically I find character generation the most awkward part of the game. It has a lot of page flipping when you first start using it (the author even apologies for that right in the book :eek: ).

Quote from: blakkieBecause it is built into it that the story turns on failure.  For example when you use "Circles" to try to contact or find someone if you succeed "yah!", if you fail you find them (at GM choice) but a new complication also comes with it (they hate you, you owe them money, etc.)  

I remember the stuff from the Circles, yes, but as a general mechanism I kinda missed that. I'll have to check with the books, but I can't remember a special way of handling misses in combat or debate. Basically it's generic GM advice put next to the rules.

Quote from: blakkieBut you could always drop the $25 for the core book bundle (Character burner is a second for character generation, but it's only sold with the core book) and read it?

I do own it. It's a nice, crunchy game, but really not that revolutionary. Whether you play a bunch of villagers with BW, D&D, WFRP, GURPS, Swordbearer or Hahlmabrea will have an impact on lethality, according to the general power level of the game. The general flow of the game won't be that different...

Quote from: VellorianWeather.

[...snip...]

Rain.  Fog.  Overcast days.  Wind.  Lightning.  Thunder.

Setting-wise, the adventure should begin just as Autumn shifts to Winter.  The situation starts out with a decent harvest during a pleasant Indian Summer, then fogs and stagnant air begins to set in, shifting lazily to an ugly drizzle, then back to fog again.  Stillness, dead-quiet, and a claustrophobic atmosphere should be the prevailing feel.  Nice call.

!i!

Quote from: blakkieWell at first I just flipped to the Man Lifepaths and looked through the list, because it does organize them by "setting" which has LP split by peasants/villagers/cities (and seafaring/military/nobles/etc.) separate.

But the more you talked about it, the more it fit. If you plan to run it for a while it fits a lot better because while you will likely see stat/skill point increase per session the power climb is a lot slower and even. Plus you can, and usually do, increase skills a fair amount without suddenly becoming hardened soilders of war (well, relatively speaking ).

I was already about half-sold on BW.  I'm probably closer to about three quarters sold now.  So the basic books needed to really get up and go play the game are the bundled set of the rules and the Character Burner, right?

Quote from: SosthenesWhether you play a bunch of villagers with BW, D&D, WFRP, GURPS, Swordbearer or Hahlmabrea will have an impact on lethality, according to the general power level of the game. The general flow of the game won't be that different...

Quite true.  The setting just tells you the order of events, but the specific game used will dictate the playability of rank peasants or villagers and how to scale the threat appropriately.  For instance, I was thinking of using RQIII or HQ, both of which start out even low-low level characters with more survivability than D&D (well, 1st ed AD&D).

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI was already about half-sold on BW.  I'm probably closer to about three quarters sold now.  So the basic books needed to really get up and go play the game are the bundled set of the rules and the Character Burner, right?

Yeah, that'll be what you need. The Monster Burner is the only other book there is, which is a natural if you want to do something super special with the Grendal in a physical way. Or you can just base it off the Troll given at the back of the core book and mix in some sort of corruption-type natural magic that mirrors the Elven Weathersong to generate that fog effect you were talking about. Other stubtle, creepy magic too. Not particularly offensive but like you say a great tone setter. Such as very wide AoE fear magic that just increases Obstacles (equivalent of DC) of Steel tests. Maybe tie-in Mark of Cain with something if you want to really bring a creepified Beowolf feel to it, like naturally upping everyone's suspision of others to turn victim against victim (which is their real test, to uncover the real enemy and convince others of this).

A monster that uses corruption to play one side off the other and dislikes direct confrontation. So maybe they'll not even have to kill the monster, just be able to confront it. Be brave enough to shine the light on the Evil that is turning your blood cold and it scuttles like a roach? To move on to easier prey? A physically formitable yet cowardly monster that prefers being the puppet master because that's the safe way?

Quote from: SosthenesI remember the stuff from the Circles, yes, but as a general mechanism I kinda missed that. I'll have to check with the books, but I can't remember a special way of handling misses in combat or debate.

Not individual misses during combat or debate. I was talking about losing a battle. Basically it's designed to accept failure. Remember RPGPundit's thread about players that had a hard time backing down? That Wolf Syndrome in players (and GMs), win every battle but your last, is largely a result of a system/GM that doesn't address PC failure well.

QuoteBasically it's generic GM advice put next to the rules.

It does put advise on how to use the rules next to the actual mechanics. (It's not just GM advise, since it isn't just a GM book).  But the way I read it is rules that are well crafted tools for running a solid game with the author's suggested instructions for effective use of the tools right handy.

QuoteI do own it. It's a nice, crunchy game, but really not that revolutionary.

Revolutionary, evolutionary, Virgin Mary...? *shrug* Just saying I think that what Ian is aiming at suits it very well, far better than D&D because....

QuoteWhether you play a bunch of villagers with BW, D&D, WFRP, GURPS, Swordbearer or Hahlmabrea will have an impact on lethality, according to the general power level of the game. The general flow of the game won't be that different...

.... the critical difference from D&D is because of the increase in power from level to level you either end up with static characters (no XP) or you quickly ramp up beyond the "peasants saving the village" mode to something different. With BW you can play and advance for a longer period before you start looking like something very different than peasants. Since the skills you use are the ones that increase you also tend to see characters grow more organically.  At the end you'll look at the character and say "Yeah, I still clearly see the Butcher/Herder/Acolyte/Ferrier in there." As for the other suggestions you list there, well I'm not going out on a limb there because those aren't really areas I can talk about to the same depth. *shrug*

On survivability I'm not convinced is the same either. Basically BW has a lower mortality rate than D&D (unless the player allows it to happen) at the very low levels, and higher rate at upper levels once you factor in Raise Dead/Resurection. For better and/or worse (but definately different).

Quote from: blakkieNot individual misses during combat or debate. I was talking about losing a battle. Basically it's designed to accept failure. Remember RPGPundit's thread about players that had a hard time backing down? That Wolf Syndrome in players (and GMs), win every battle but your last, is largely a result of a system/GM that doesn't address PC failure well.

Erm, if orcs attack me in BW and I lose, I'm dead.
If orcs attack me in D&D and I lose, I'm dead.
If orcs attack me in FATAL and I lose, I'm dead -- and better off...

Unless the GM has mercy on the poor player, there's no difference I can see that makes losing any easier. I've got the books at home, so if you can point me to the right section... Maybe I missed the rule where it says that only the player can decree the death of the character.

Generally I'd say that BW is on the same level as RQ. You increase the skills you use, and the mortality rate is pretty much the same. Actually, describing BW as RQ with dice pools isn't that far off...

With only passing familiarity with BW, I believe that what Blakkie is saying is that, given the characters' survival in a failed conflict, BW's rules provide a strategic bonus in subsequent encounters.  The rules have built-in provisions to let the players know that failing in an encounter doesn't mean losing the game -- instead it provides an incentive for the next scenario.  Again, provided your characters actually survive.

!i!

Quote from: SosthenesUnless the GM has mercy on the poor player, there's no difference I can see that makes losing any easier. I've got the books at home, so if you can point me to the right section... Maybe I missed the rule where it says that only the player can decree the death of the character.

Yes, yes you did.  The player can spend a point of Persona Artha, if they have one, for either "Will to Live" (page 69) to survive a Mortal Wound or for a "Complication" (page 70) which is better named The Out Of The Frying Pan, Into The Fire rule (and is similar to Hand Of God, or the SR4 equivalent of permanently burning a point of Edge, in Shadowrun).

QuoteIf a character has just failed a test and gotten himself into deep trouble - killed, captured, or something similarly horrible - the player can spend a Persona point on that failed test to redirect the narrative from "certain death" into further complications. As a rule the player may choose his new fate. It's got to be bad and/or costly [with a tangible cost], though. Otherwise, the GM can simply declare that the initial failed test result stands.

So it isn't so much that only the player can decree the death as it is that usually the player has the means under the rules to avoid death. Of course if they have used up all their Persona artha then they are hooped and the character dies. The end result is that even though your character is fairly vulnerable (and remains so until such point that you manage to bump up to a Grey MW, which is going to take a loooooong time and a truckload of Artha, and then only largely protected from Black damage dealing characters/creatures while still vulnerable to Grey damage dealers like Giants) they don't actually die unless you are spendthrift with your Persona Artha, or you just aren't making good things happen in the game to earn the Persona Artha, or you just decide that it is a good time to let the PC die.

So generally PCs don't die as often, but because of this when they do die they stay dead.

I stand corrected. As the very model of a sadistic, miserly GM I postponed reading the Persona artha section until way, way deep into a future campaign. If I'm not mistaken, it was pretty hard to get one of those, so our fledgling villagers would bite the dust anyway

Quote from: SosthenesI stand corrected. As the very model of a sadistic, miserly GM I postponed reading the Persona artha section until way, way deep into a future campaign. If I'm not mistaken, it was pretty hard to get one of those, so our fledgling villagers would bite the dust anyway

Suggested starting Artha for a 3 LP character I think is 1 Persona Artha. But they are somewhat rarer to come by compared to Fate Artha, although less so that Deed Artha. A rough guidline for Persona Artha, depending what is actually happening in play of course, is 1 Persona/character per session. There are also some other helpful uses for Persona Artha, so running out is indeed a real possibility. That is why it is a good idea to not spend that last point of Persona until you really need it, trying to get by just spending Fate Artha in less ungent situations.

P.S. The "Complications" rule is presented as optional, but I personally highly recommend it. It's a great concept for any game where the threat of permanent death is always near (most starting BW characters suffer a MW in one heavy crossbow shot on a DoF roll of 6).

Once upon a time I had a hard time imagining what it was like for a non-gamer to have a conversation with me, a gamer. Listening to you're talk about BW, artha, grey shit, black shit and DoF and MW's I no longer have this trouble.

I weep for my shattered innocence.

Quote from: SpikeOnce upon a time I had a hard time imagining what it was like for a non-gamer to have a conversation with me, a gamer. Listening to you're talk about BW, artha, grey shit, black shit and DoF and MW's I no longer have this trouble.

I weep for my shattered innocence.

:roofle: Yah, I suppose so. Sorry about taking your innocence like that.