Counting the army lists, it looks like more than half of the book is game related text.  I think those Battle plan entries are scenarios.  It's strange how they chose to intersperse them acrosss chapters.

Thank you for your comments TristramEvans, they were amusing and enlightening (didn't know that bit about Terry Pratchett for instance).

I started Fantasy around the time of the boxed set that came with a cardboard stand-in for Grom the Paunch, so lore of the before-time is especially fascinating.

If you're curious about Warhammer prehistory, you should check out the Oldhammer community, expecially the blogs Realm of Chaos 80s and Realm of Zhu.

Quote from: TristramEvans;842058If you're curious about Warhammer prehistory, you should check out the Oldhammer community, expecially the blogs Realm of Chaos 80s and Realm of Zhu.

Is anything much coming of the Oldhammer movement? Seems like I recall that there was an attempt at a rules clone at some point but I haven't heard anything about it in ages.

Quote from: Arkansan;842061Is anything much coming of the Oldhammer movement? Seems like I recall that there was an attempt at a rules clone at some point but I haven't heard anything about it in ages.

From what I can tell, that project was eventually abandoned when they realized 1) everybody already had a copy of the third edition rulebook, and you could get one on ebay for half the price of the latest edition's rulebook; and 2) that Oldhammer was more about the spirit of gaming at that time, and not a specific rules-set.

Unlike, say, the OSR, Oldhammer is more focused on pretty pictures of painted lead and guys getting together for beers and some light-hearted entertainment while they reminisce about the 80s.

All that said, I personally have something up my sleeve in regards to the retroclone project...

Quote from: TristramEvans;842094Unlike, say, the OSR, Oldhammer is more focused on pretty pictures of painted lead and guys getting together for beers and some light-hearted entertainment while they reminisce about the 80s.

From what I have heard, there actually more Oldhammer going on at the local wargame club than any other edition. It does seem to be quite a force right now.

Quote from: TristramEvans;842094From what I can tell, that project was eventually abandoned when they realized 1) everybody already had a copy of the third edition rulebook, and you could get one on ebay for half the price of the latest edition's rulebook; and 2) that Oldhammer was more about the spirit of gaming at that time, and not a specific rules-set.

Unlike, say, the OSR, Oldhammer is more focused on pretty pictures of painted lead and guys getting together for beers and some light-hearted entertainment while they reminisce about the 80s.

All that said, I personally have something up my sleeve in regards to the retroclone project...

Makes sense. I would be very interested to see what you come up with in regards to a retroclone project.

Nathan has it - GW gave us the game mechanics for free and the stats for current models to tide us over.  The actual Age of Sigmar GAME - unit stats, scenarios, worlds and background, maybe even army comp, is going to be sold to us £50 book by £50 book.

I don't actually mind what we have at the moment - getting people to start playing with free rules and the stats in a couple of boxes isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Just that so many other companies start you off with their games so much better.

The new models - some good, some bad, just like everyone else.  I've said for ages that the Skaven Stormfiends were a taste of what was to come - cartoony (over) powerful units with a ton of special abilities.  The lack of army comp and points, overpowered units and wild synergy is entirely intentional.  Just been tabled by a dick move?  Buy the models and do it yourself!

I can see why a lot of WFB players see it as a kick in the teeth - the new game is an entirely new direction for GW, not a replacement.  And GW has handled the change appallingly badly.  The worst communication I've ever seen on a project.

Ah well, my copy of 8th edition cost £5 off eBay, and I got a copy of 6th+Ravening Hordes (basic army lists) for £2.  And plenty of other games for us to try - Kings of War 2 is looking OK.

I don't see it as a kick in the teeth. I just lament the death of the game Ive loved most of my life. GW has every right to no longer make that game, but if they wanted to keep the older audience then they made a lot of mistakes in that regard.

So far I've come up with a comp system that everyone in my group agrees is fair, and Ive tried AoS twice, and after the second game I was ready to go back to 8th. Its not a "bad" game, but I just want to play Warhammer.

GW could have done this differently. It would not have been that hard for them to have their cake and eat it too. As such, I dont entirely understand the decision processes at work here, but I hope this gets Mantic a lot of business, because they deserve it. They're a great company run by fans for fans. Exactly what GW used to be when I started. Mantic just needs a nifty "White Dwarf-esque" magazine, and for someone to take a second pass at those elf sculpts...

Quote from: TristramEvans;842306I don't see it as a kick in the teeth. I just lament the death of the game Ive loved most of my life. GW has every right to no longer make that game, but if they wanted to keep the older audience then they made a lot of mistakes in that regard.

So far I've come up with a comp system that everyone in my group agrees is fair, and Ive tried AoS twice, and after the second game I was ready to go back to 8th. Its not a "bad" game, but I just want to play Warhammer.

GW could have done this differently. It would not have been that hard for them to have their cake and eat it too. As such, I dont entirely understand the decision processes at work here, but I hope this gets Mantic a lot of business, because they deserve it. They're a great company run by fans for fans. Exactly what GW used to be when I started. Mantic just needs a nifty "White Dwarf-esque" magazine, and for someone to take a second pass at those elf sculpts...

I really think they would have been better off investing in doing a really well done skirmish game. Particularly if they kept the rules cheap, or free. It would serve as a nice intro and stepping stone into the larger game. It would also be a way for people who simply can't invest in large armies to be involved in the game.

Quote from: Arkansan;842321I really think they would have been better off investing in doing a really well done skirmish game. Particularly if they kept the rules cheap, or free. It would serve as a nice intro and stepping stone into the larger game. It would also be a way for people who simply can't invest in large armies to be involved in the game.

For the months leading up to it, thats what we all thought [what turned out to be] AoS was. A skirmish level introduction to the game. And then it comes out and GW's like "Nope, this is it, no 9th edition". It was a bit of a rug-pull for me.

Quote from: TristramEvans;842325For the months leading up to it, thats what we all thought [what turned out to be] AoS was. A skirmish level introduction to the game. And then it comes out and GW's like "Nope, this is it, no 9th edition". It was a bit of a rug-pull for me.

Yeah I can see that being a big shock. A quick question since you seem to be a Warhammer buff, is it worth it trying to get into fantasy at this point or should I just go ahead with 40k? I mean it seems like everything with Fantasy is really up in the air at this point.

I like 40k, and wouldn't mind starting up a chaos army based around what comes in the Dark Vengeance set. I actually want to do a cultist army if that's doable. I already have the rulebook from the set so I could just pick up the Chaos half from ebay or something.

Quote from: Arkansan;842326Yeah I can see that being a big shock. A quick question since you seem to be a Warhammer buff, is it worth it trying to get into fantasy at this point or should I just go ahead with 40k? I mean it seems like everything with Fantasy is really up in the air at this point.

I like 40k, and wouldn't mind starting up a chaos army based around what comes in the Dark Vengeance set. I actually want to do a cultist army if that's doable. I already have the rulebook from the set so I could just pick up the Chaos half from ebay or something.

I know of 40k. I have a small necron force modded up to look like Cybermen from Dr Who, but Ive yet to take them out for a test spin. WHF remains me first love on the miniatures games front. Is it a good time to get into it? That really depends on a couple of factors.

The first, and most important, is if you play with friends primarily or you'd be relying on your FLGS for pick-up games. If the latter, then I'd say no, its not a great time for it unless you really do enjoy AoS. Thats what most games stores will be pushing, hard, for the time being. But if the former, then you have the luxury of playing any edition, in which case yes, its a great time for it, for reasons Ill come back to in a sec.

The second is the question of disposable income. It is very easy to do Cheaphammer; depending on the army, finding alternate models of decent price isnt hard these days. If orcs or dwarves are your thing, EM4 minis selss them in bags of 50 for peanuts. But even if you want to stick with *official* miniatures, the reason this is a great time to get into WH is that so many older players are disillusioned with AoS that they are selling off their armies cheap as can be. The Craigslist in my area filled up with over ten pages of WH armies for sale in the last month. Ebay isnt as good as it was 10 years ago, but you can still find deals. And the secondhand market on Facebook is thriving these days.

Thirdly,it really depends on your taste in games. What Warhammer did well was massive battles with units of 30-40 troops (more if they're slaves) and huge monsters and war machines. If thats something that pushes your buttons, well, no one has done it better (I like KoW, but its very simplified and streamlined. Warhammer was full of character and options).

The nicest thing about playing older editions is that they are "complete" games, whereas new editions tend to have long periods between the updating of army books for certain armies. In the 4 or 5 years since 8th was introduced, 3 major armies never got on update. Whereas I can go back and play 6th, buy the old rulebooks for $5-10 a piece on the secondary market, and its pretty much a complete edition. Even better, 3rd edition has all the rules needed in one book.

Warhammer is a great game I'll continue to play even without GW's support. There are massive fan communities online devoted to every edition (except, seemingly, 7th. I don't think anyone liked that edition), and GW does at the very least make some very beautiful minis.

See I'd be relying on my FLGS to get pickup games, so that might be an issue. Of course I'm used to wargaming solo so that isn't a too large a problem and I'm sure if I turn enough stones I could find some folks willing to play with unofficial models.

It seems like my best bet may be to pick up an older edition of the game and find a line of unofficial models I like. Is there a particular edition you recommend? My step dad has an old 1st edition box I could use but he's pretty guarded with his old gaming stuff.

Quote from: Arkansan;842363See I'd be relying on my FLGS to get pickup games, so that might be an issue. Of course I'm used to wargaming solo so that isn't a too large a problem and I'm sure if I turn enough stones I could find some folks willing to play with unofficial models.

It seems like my best bet may be to pick up an older edition of the game and find a line of unofficial models I like. Is there a particular edition you recommend? My step dad has an old 1st edition box I could use but he's pretty guarded with his old gaming stuff.

They each have different virtues. I've never played 1st or 2nd edition myself, only read about them. Third was the beginning for me, as it was written in conjunction with the first edition of the rpg, and those two books combined formed my initial and lingering impression of The Old World. 3rd edition is great because it gives a lot of options and you only really need the main rulebook to play (although Warhammer Armies is recommended for tournament/competative play), but it is also the most complex version of the rules. Many fiddly bits. I don't mind that because they mostly contribute to the feeling of realism in the game, but I do appreciate the streamlining of later editions.

4th and especially 5th edition are known as "Herohammer" online , because the focus was more on characters than units. This is when the game first started towards streamlining, and three of the stats were dropped : Intelligence, Cool, and Willpower. I have the least experiences with these editions. The card-based magic system I found a bit unwieldy. From what I hear, several of the army books were wildly overpowered.

6th edition was a reaction to Herohammer, and is personally, after 3rd, my favourite edition. It received an incredible amount of support, from The General's Compendium and Warhammer:Skirmish to campaigns based around Lustria and Kislev. This was the edition tied directly to Mordheim as well. Characters were de-emphasized in favour of units. The rules were streamlined yet again, pretty much into what would be recognized as the modern form. Magic got an overhaul, returning it to a dice-based system.

8th edition I liked, but it very much favoured big blocks of infantry over anything else. It was never fully supported either, which is a shame, because the army books they did produce for it were gorgeous. But the supplements were trash. The rules were only slightly tweaked from those of 6th. The starter sets are probably still at this point relatively easy to find, a good deal if you're considering Elves or Skaven armies, but otherwise I'd skip it.

Mordheim is also worth considering. It focuses on skirmishing rules, around forces of around 10 models, that grow and improve as you gain experience and wealth. To this day it's incredibly well-regarded among fans, and there's a living rulebook that is available free online providing all the info you need. Only downside is you need quite a bit of terrain to really make it worthwhile. I recommend finding a scan online of the old Warhammer: Townscape, and printing the buildings up on cardstock.

Any idea what army you're interested in?