So this is my major bone of contention here, I often have no idea what games have been declared 'storygames' by Pundit as there's no set of standards from what I can tell that would allow me to logically infer these things. That others consider games story games that I don't is up to the people running the site, I accept. Its their sandbox, but for those of us not interested in the drama currently surrounding this issue or the 'war on swine', I think it would be nice, even necessary, to have a point of reference to know what one can and can't discuss in what forum w/o being accused of acts of terrorism.
Hence this thread, here to create a list of what rpgs a person needs to go to 'other games to discuss w/o fear of reprisal.
Some are obvious:
Smallville
Marvel Heroic Role playing
Bliss Stage
Apocalypse World
Baron Munchausen
Others less so:
Dungeonworld
Red Box Hack
Car Wars
Its been suggested The One Ring is considered a story game on these boards, can anyone confirm?
What else?
How about any of the following RPGs?
Are Magic a
Burning Wheel
The Story Engine
Any variation of Fate
Never where
Dogs in the Vineyard
Maid
Poison'd
Alyria
Lady Blackbird
The Pool
The Window
Nobilis
Theatrix
Over the Edge
Panels
Active Exploits
Agon
Capes
Ghostbusters
Dead Weight
Destiny
Technoir
Eoris
Anima
Little Fears
Puppetland
Underworld
Cthulhutech
Wicked Age
Wuthering Heights
Trail of Cthulhu
Teenagers from Outer Space
Dread
Two-Fisted Tales
From what I gather, it's any time there's a codified mechanic that forces the GM to allow the players some sort of direct control over the conduct of the game.
If that's not criteria, it's probably a good red flag.
But I would be interested to learn more about this as well.
We know FATE isn't considered a story-game on this site.
We know Dungeon World, TBZ, AW, Dogs in the Vineyard, Maid, and Poison'd are considered a story-game on this site.
Although does it really matter? If you post in the wrong place, it gets moved. Not even GW got banned for putting a "Other Game" in RPGs, he got banned for putting non-RPG related stuff in Media after being repeatedly told not to.
What it comes down to is, if you really care about talking about a specific game, you'll talk about it.
If what is more important to you is where you talk about it, well then you're just here to wage war against the Pundit and we all know how successful that will be on his own site.
Hell, if you are that concerned about the classification about an Other Game, open up a thread and actually make a case. "Savage Worlds has Bennies!" isn't a case.
Turn Other Games into the sewer you claim it is if you feel the overwhelming need, but you're the one making it that way, and you could have done differently except the tantrum appears more important.
Quote from: mcbobbo;668636From what I gather, it's any time there's a codified mechanic that forces the GM to allow the players some sort of direct control over the conduct of the game.
So there are no story games in existence then?
Words in a book cannot force anyone to do anything.
Quote from: CRKrueger;668667Although does it really matter? If you post in the wrong place, it gets moved. Not even GW got banned for putting a "Other Game" in RPGs, he got banned for putting non-RPG related stuff in Media after being repeatedly told not to.
What it comes down to is, if you really care about talking about a specific game, you'll talk about it.
If what is more important to you is where you talk about it, well then you're just here to wage war against the Pundit and we all know how successful that will be on his own site.
Hell, if you are that concerned about the classification about an Other Game, open up a thread and actually make a case. "Savage Worlds has Bennies!" isn't a case.
Turn Other Games into the sewer you claim it is if you feel the overwhelming need, but you're the one making it that way, and you could have done differently except the tantrum appears more important.
+1
Also, in the spirit of the current muck-slinging, i know not what these 'stroygames' are that you speak of.
Quote from: One Horse Town;668718+1
Also, in the spirit of the current muck-slinging, i know not what these 'stroygames' are that you speak of.
At a guess, they are a subset of storygames that cannot afford a proofreader. ;o)
Quote from: jadrax;668725At a guess, they are a subset of storygames that cannot afford a proofreader. ;o)
Another proof storygames are rpgs.
Quote from: CRKrueger;668667Although does it really matter?
Nothing on this site or to do with rpgs 'really matters'. I talk about things that interest me or seek out conversations that I enjoy, but its just a bunch of silly games when it comes down to it.
QuoteTurn Other Games into the sewer you claim it is if you feel the overwhelming need, but you're the one making it that way, and you could have done differently except the tantrum appears more important.
You must be confusing me with someone else, since this isn't based on anything I said.
Threadcrappers aside, I see a value in a list, since as it stands there are no standards being universally communicated or applied.
The whole 'post where you want and let the mods move it' argument is a bit odd, especially to hear endorsed by a mod, the day after Pundit called another poster a terrorist for essentially saying the same damn thing, and threatened to ban anyone who followedhis advice.
Quote from: TristramEvans;668870Threadcrappers aside, I see a value in a list, since as it stands there are no standards being universally communicated or applied.
The whole 'post where you want and let the mods move it' argument is a bit odd, especially to hear endorsed by a mod, the day after Pundit called another poster a terrorist for essentially saying the same damn thing, and threatened to ban anyone who followedhis advice.
There's a difference between saying "if you aren't sure if a game is a Storygame or an RPG (as if its that hard to tell!) then you can post where you like and we'll move it for you if you posted wrong"...
and saying "We should all post threads about games ALREADY ESTABLISHED as storygames in the main forum just to fuck with the mods... and by "we" I mean 'you', so that you get banned and I don't!"
RPGPundit
Well, i was agreeing with the sentiment of the post and that one slipped me by.
I can't speak for the Pundit, but i think there won't be a list - that way lies RPGnet types of accumulation of rules and by default rules-lawyering.
Post a thread where you truly think it belongs on this site, not where you think in your own stick it to the man ideology, it belongs.
Let's face it, if it comes from a Forge/storygames writer, you most likely know where it should go.
If you start putting stuff like WFRP in here because, you know, Fate Points! then you're being a silly arse looking for a fight. You know it, we know it.
Those that fall in the cracks - well Pundit can deal with those as and when he feels like it IMO.
Quote from: TristramEvans;668631How about any of the following RPGs?
Teenagers from Outer Space
This is not a storygame by any stretch of the imagination. It is a tabletop RPG pure and simple.
Quote from: mcbobbo;668636From what I gather, it's any time there's a codified mechanic that forces the GM to allow the players some sort of direct control over the conduct of the game.
If that's not criteria, it's probably a good red flag.
But I would be interested to learn more about this as well.
That would probably be the way I define the mysterious elusive story game.
And mechanics that give players control over the gm would be the reason story games don't work for me.
I think most people agree that a codified mechanic that forces the GM to allow the players some sort of direct control over the conduct of the game is a dividing line or a pretty big red flag. Its the kind of thing I was trying to get at in my other thread and certainly a point where my enjoyment drops.
Most of the recent discussion has been around the dividing line of a mechanic that the players can only engage with on an OOC level.
I've kinda decided I don't understand, I don't really get the division, and I am cool with the fact that Pundit doesn't seem to really hurt people if they disagree with him, which is fine by me.
If I put stuff in the wrong place I am sure he'll move it for me.
Now back to Dungeon Crawl Classics, and I *never* thought I'd say that.
Q: 'What RPGs are considered Storygames on this site?"
A: None. A game cannot be both an RPG and a Storygame on this site, so it is not possible! QED
:D
-clash
Exactly.
Quote from: RPGPundit;670509Exactly.
Not even a little exactly as it completely fails to address the question via pettifoggary .
Quote from: TristramEvans;670665Not even a little exactly as it completely fails to address the question via pettifoggary .
No, it doesn't. Pundit's position* is that storygames are not RPGs. Your question is what RPGs are considered storygames on this site, which, if answered in any other way, admits that storygames are RPGs. This is not allowable because of Pundit's well-known position. Your question must be rephrased in such a way that it does not assume storygames are, in fact, RPGs, such as "What tabletop games are considered storygames on this site?"
*I do not agree with this position, but that is immaterial. This is Pundit's forum, not mine, and not yours.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;670698No, it doesn't. Pundit's position* is that storygames are not RPGs. Your question is what RPGs are considered storygames on this site, which, if answered in any other way, admits that storygames are RPGs. This is not allowable because of Pundit's well-known position. Your question must be rephrased in such a way that it does not assume storygames are, in fact, RPGs, such as "What tabletop games are considered storygames on this site?"
*I do not agree with this position, but that is immaterial. This is Pundit's forum, not mine, and not yours.
-clash
Let me put it like this, consider a person who does not play /read every RPG out there, and may have missed Rpgsite Rant xx so that I'm aware what games are 'storygames', and which meet the Pundits approval. In which case, lets then assume that when someone mentions Marvel Heroic Role-Playing Game they are in fact quoting the title of a printed book. Like, in English.
Anyhow, regardless I gave up on that thought after it met general disdain. Whatever, I thought it be nice for visitors or those of us that don't really understand some of the reasoning behind Pundit's declaration/condemnation/what-have-you, and thuswouldn't, for example, think twice about bringing up The One Ring in Rpgopen until randomnly hear another poster say it was declared a story game (and then another poster contradicted that and meanwhile Pundits calling another guy a terrorist for saying, basically, 'frell it, ignore him and post wherever you want. Let them clean up the mess. And there's the whole Storygamers are trying to destroy ganing' thing that frankly just baffles me. So yeah, honestly I'd just as soon discuss any RPG that is considered a storygame in disguise somewhere else and keep my discussions focused here on those games the RPG crowd here would find interest in talking about.
But I've come to two conclusions since starting this thread which change my views 1) nobody gives a crap about any of that stuff so maybe it was simply a stupid idea. In the words of Groucho Marx: "they can't all be winners." & 2) dissecting game systems by way of debating 'storygame' or 'narrative elements ' is fun, and since it allready starts in the 'other games section by default, its not a situation where I feel like I'm trolling or someone's going to point and yell "terrorist! Your trying to infiltrate this site with your devious attempts to undermine the hobby!" Because frankly I find these boards a breath of fresh air after rpgnet slided into whatever state its in now, moderated by trolls from Something Awful. So I do actually make attempts to you know, contribute to discussions about our shared hobby.