I think the difference between this and Wildstar is scale.

That was a fairly mainstream MMORPG, so trying to appeal to the "elite" who like to talk big on forums about how MMORPGs were better in the old days was just going to backfire.

OTOH, this seems to be similar to Shroud of the Avatar in that it's built in Unity and probably uses a lot of pre-made assets and thus made by a very small team.

If they can find even 5,000 shut-ins who have no life and can spend 10 hours a day playing a single session and are willing to pay $10 a month, they can probably break even.

I guess a good comparison is Darkfall. It was supposedly the game that people on MMORPG forums wanted - sandbox, full loot PVP, I think you had to make almost every sort of equipment. While it flopped compared to other MMORPGs, it had enough of a following to stay around.

Don't get me wrong, he can get a game up and running and support itself for X number of people only, more power to him.  It's the trumpeting of falsehoods that got me.

It not resurrecting "old school MMO" play, it's resurrecting "old school MMO Raid" play.

It's not a sandbox, in fact it's even less of a sandbox game than the games it attacks, because even within their "instant gratification" model, they still allow for different playstyles.  He offers one.

Raid Progression is not a sandbox, it's a ladder, always has been always will be.  Unless you give someone more than one way to get the gear and skill they will need to tackle B other than by tackling A first, then you're just as much of a theme park, railroad, tournament bracket as every other game you're railing against, only it's a different ticket you're sellin'.

Which is fine, find your market and hit it, but don't tell be you're the second coming of Back in the Day while you're doing it.  'Cause it's bullshit.

Quote from: CRKrueger;857153Don't get me wrong, he can get a game up and running and support itself for X number of people only, more power to him.  It's the trumpeting of falsehoods that got me.

It not resurrecting "old school MMO" play, it's resurrecting "old school MMO Raid" play.

It's not a sandbox, in fact it's even less of a sandbox game than the games it attacks, because even within their "instant gratification" model, they still allow for different playstyles.  He offers one.

Raid Progression is not a sandbox, it's a ladder, always has been always will be.  Unless you give someone more than one way to get the gear and skill they will need to tackle B other than by tackling A first, then you're just as much of a theme park, railroad, tournament bracket as every other game you're railing against, only it's a different ticket you're sellin'.

Which is fine, find your market and hit it, but don't tell be you're the second coming of Back in the Day while you're doing it.  'Cause it's bullshit.

Couldn't agree with you more

Quote from: CRKrueger;857153Don't get me wrong, he can get a game up and running and support itself for X number of people only, more power to him.  It's the trumpeting of falsehoods that got me.

Well, in a way I want to say "give him a break."  I mean I say out loud he's just doing the group focus to get the m in mmorg--it's obviously true but what is he supposed to do, admit I'm right?  That would spread like a fart across his own website.  He wants to make a hit that will get lots of revenue and who among us doesn't share that desire?  As the "face of the game" he is almost forced into the position of parroting the "return-to-D&D" idealistic schtick and using words like "sandbox" and "old-school" to keep the small group of pitchfork-wielders chanting. Whether he actually believes all this stuff is another matter.  

He may very well believe that all it takes is hard work and determination.  He sounds very very similar the CEO of another mmorg attempt I worked for.  That guy I am absolutely certain believed it, because he was my friend.  He now runs a computer consulting business.  He was an able administrator and a knowledgable network architecture guy who really liked mmorgs and basically had the same idea as this guy does.  "Make a better EQ."  He thought that was an original idea.  That was about ten years ago.  There have been countless iterations of him and Renfail in the years since.

Back then I tried to tell my friend the exact same thing. Target a different audience than the big guild crowd.  Renfail and my friend both had very good ideas and were hard-working (i'd say even say tireless in the one case).  Of course, that just isnt anywhere close to being enough.

None of that I care about really.  What I care about is that after all this time, I can't get on my computer and go explore an interesting and well-designed mmorg that isn't tilted heavily against solo and small group play, where anything I can get as a result of all my clever hard work isnt insignificant in comparison to what 8 7-year-olds can get in their 41st 25-minute run through one of 13 uber dungeons.  

Renfail believes he will design a game that through mechanics will end this trend and force these players to behave the way he thinks they should...they way I think they should as well.  The critical error he is making is the nature of the problem.  Human desires will not change.  The masses will not stop wanting things to work a certain way.  Those players will either figure out a way to get his system to work the way they want or they will not.  If they do not, he will either have to change his system to give them what they want or they will leave.  They will not change for Renfail no matter what he does.  He will change, or they will leave.

Someday I am certain that someone will identify the massive opportunity presented by the mmorg audience that wants an actual sandbox that is designed for solo and small group play.  That person will make a fortune by tapping into the desire for a non-uber environment...none of which I care about either.  What I do care about is that it happens before I lose the ability to sit upright or to see, which looks more and more unlikely with every passing year.

Quote from: Ghost;857180Someday I am certain that someone will identify the massive opportunity presented by the mmorg audience that wants an actual sandbox that is designed for solo and small group play.  That person will make a fortune by tapping into the desire for a non-uber environment...none of which I care about either.  What I do care about is that it happens before I lose the ability to sit upright or to see, which looks more and more unlikely with every passing year.

Just a smidge thick dontcha think?

Quote from: Sommerjon;857204Just a smidge thick dontcha think?

It would have been in 2005.

Dayum, where's the +1 button when you need it. Ghost is making all sorts of sense...probably the ol' "voice of experience" which gives someone such an unfair advantage when it comes to perspective.

It's good to see new games from independents, with good ideas in good directions.

I think there's definitely room for indie MP CRPGs or even MMORPGs, without needing to think they have to "compete" directly with corporate MMORPGs.

Without getting too negative about it, I too agree with much of what Ghost wrote. \

In particular, I think it's a mistake to try to force group coop in unnatural ways. I think it would make much more sense and be more appealing if there was worthwhile solo gameplay, and if you could gather NPCs to fill out a party.

Also, though I like natural obstacles, I don't like artificial obstacles, and having no solo content seems foolish and offputting. I think it's great if the world has stuff that naturally requires diverse skills. If there's a place that you'd really need skilled carpentry work and lots of supplies to get to, great. If there are places where you'd need a bunch of people to fight your way in, great. And so on. But if everything interesting in the world requires a variety of special stuff, and there's nothing much you can accomplish without a forming a circus troupe of special talents, well that seems bizarre and annoying, and more like a puzzle game, and like a recipe for frustration and something I wouldn't be into. I'm fine with getting stopped as long as there's other worthwhile stuff to do.

Also, yeah, it's amazing how groups of players form and arrange mafia-like clan behavior, even in ridiculously stupid phone app games, and they deliberately analyze games and target ways to exploit the game systems to leverage their group's numbers and diverse resources to bypass gameplay obstacles and trivialize the game's challenges. (No map? The mafia has one. Need supplies? Mafia has 'em, and free magic swords when you join. Need protection? Mafia. Need diverse skills? Mafia, and they need your character to learn beekeeping at level 17+. Need to learn how to solve complex dungeons with secrets? Mafia has those mapped and planned how to beat them. Etc.) The more obstacles you put in that require grinding and hierarchical levels and multi-player participation, the more that creates leverage for mafias until, as has been said, it feels like belonging to a gang is needed to accomplish anything.  This is an area where new game thinking is needed, to not end up in Mafia hell.