Quote from: Rincewind1;649272Don't call pigs from the forest

I shouldn't worry about it, some dastardly character dropped a lit cigarette in the forest and now all that's left is the deeelicious smell of roasted long pig, mon.

Quote from: silva;649300This.

A good rule of thumb is, if you find yourself agreeing with Gleichman it's time to take a long hard look in the mirror. No offence, Gleichman.

Quote from: The Traveller;649304A good rule of thumb is, if you find yourself agreeing with Gleichman it's time to take a long hard look in the mirror. No offence, Gleichman.

I would think making up flat lies about a person and spreading them would be a greater cause to look in the mirror Traveller- but you seem to have skipped that completely resolving that hate is warm enough at night.

I like that better actually, the world needs petty evils such as yours so we are reminded where the large ones come from.

Quote from: The Traveller;649304I shouldn't worry about it, some dastardly character dropped a lit cigarette in the forest and now all that's left is the deeelicious smell of roasted long pig, mon.

I'm not your mon, lad. I'd not be that swift to scratch it all off - how can you kill that which has no life?

In other news: So I think we are slowly reaching conclusion that this will be a heavily narrative D&D for all those who hate/dislike D&D?

Still on ignore brian.

Quote from: Rincewind1;649308how can you kill that which has no life?

Touché.

Quote from: Rincewind1;649308D&D for all those who hate/dislike D&D?

Isn't that what pretty much all these variants have been over the years? /sarcasm

Quote from: CRKrueger;649073Silva, you keep mentioning the wargaming roots of D&D, I assume by that you mean Hit Points and Armor Class.  Have you ever looked at games like D20 Conan, Judge Dredd or Star Wars that handled them completely differently?

Actually I did. But, while I found some good things about them, in the end theyre still too rooted on the war/board/videogamey elements of their parents - classes & levels, unrealistic/faery tale lethality, too much focus on tactical combats and monsters and powers, etc (I think the keyword here is "gamism"). Besides that, at least in Conan case, I cant erase the sensation that its one more attempt at shoehorning a setting/fiction in a system that do not fits it, a pattern I never liked in D&D.

Luke Crane is an interesting designer. If you like scifi RPGs, Burning Empires is a really great toolbox of ideas and subsystems even if you never use the game. I have been wanting to run Burning Empires with Traveller for some time because it would be rocking. There are great ideas in that book.

And hell, Luke should have damn well done a Traveller version. It would have expanded his audience tenfold.

I think that Torchbearer just might be full of interesting stuff for my OD&D games too. I like the emphasis on exploration. I like how the emphasis isn't heroes, but desperate men sneaking into dark holes.

However, I think Luke has missed his calling. He should not be making RPGs, he should be making hybrid RPG/boardgames or hybrid RPG/card games. In his zeal to confine RPGs, he is missing the benefits of those other game mediums.

I would be so much more interested in Torchbearer: the Boardgame, and I think much of the Butthurt Brigade over here would actually enjoy such a boardgame.

Quote from: Rincewind1;649308In other news: So I think we are slowly reaching conclusion that this will be a heavily narrative D&D for all those who hate/dislike D&D?

I hope thats not the case. I would like to see a Runequest-like grittiness but with a lighter and simpler system, more or less like what Unknown Armies did with CoC.

(except if you consider Unknown Armies a narrative game)

Quote from: SpinachcatI would be so much more interested in Torchbearer: the Boardgame, and I think much of the Butthurt Brigade over here would actually enjoy such a boardgame.

That would be awesome.

Quote from: silva;649312classes & levels, unrealistic/faery tale lethality, too much focus on tactical combats and monsters and powers

DW and AW use many of these too.

Quote from: silva;649314(except if you consider Unknown Armies a narrative game)

Considering it came out in 1998, not likely.

Quote from: gleichman;649297Seems an narrow thing to focus on doesn't it? I think this likely reflects the swapping of roles between designer and author, Crane wasn't so focused on a single aspect as this seems to be.

Plus I noted an air of condescension about the whole thing with the murder hoboo part phrase indicating it's more of a parody than not. Of course the subject is worth a parody or two, but I doubt it will be funny. The subject just doesn't seem fun as really they're focused on the more depressing and boring elements of the concept.

Probably.  But, it might be fun to get that level of simulation going from exploring a dungeon...to get an even better sense for the desperate danger of engaging in that environment just from the time spent in it.  A couple times.  Maybe.

Quote from: silva;649314I hope thats not the case. I would like to see a Runequest-like grittiness but with a lighter and simpler system, more or less like what Unknown Armies did with CoC.

(except if you consider Unknown Armies a narrative game)

Not much more than I consider CoC a narrative game. I do not consider such things as Fate Points or Sanity Points as "narrative taboo bollocks" - such tools, while bordering between fully IC and a bit of an OOC meter, are necessary for good emulation. You could add a stat called "Dedication" in D&D, since that's what the game is often about - people going into the dark and dangerous place, motivated by their greed, ambition, helpfulness, zeal, belief, etc. etc, and they are trying to get those riches and defeat those monsters, to get somewhere in life - henceforth the higher their dedication, the more hitpoints under -10 they could live, for example. Or you could burn these points for a reroll. Or you may not use it at all - see, what I like about the "toolbox" games, is that you can often just throw some stuff out, or throw some stuff in, and it still all clicks. A lot of storygames or heavily narrative RPGs feel that if I take some stuff out, I'll be left with a hollow shell.

Quote from: Spinachcat;649313I would be so much more interested in Torchbearer: the Boardgame, and I think much of the Butthurt Brigade over here would actually enjoy such a boardgame.

I probably would, if it was a board game! And I love how you brave defenders mistake us for this guy:



While we're really these :


But if you have that much of a problem with people taking shots at your liked performer...perhaps you need to call...the Frogfather?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnC4_DKtYWc

Best Muppets parody ever, in my opinion.

I have a hard time calling the Burning Wheel a Story game. The game has very few force narrative mechanics. While Mouse Guard and Burning Empires has more narrative control, making both Story Games, I found Burning Wheel to be very traditional.  I ran a Sandbox Burning Wheel not too long ago, and it played nothing like a story game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;649313I have been wanting to run Burning Empires with Traveller for some time because it would be rocking. There are great ideas in that book.

Traveller is cited by Christopher Moeller as one of the inspirations for Iron Empires, so using Traveller to run the universe of Burning Empires which was inspired by Traveller has a pleasantly ourobouros feel about it.

Quote from: Mistwell;649318Probably.  But, it might be fun to get that level of simulation going from exploring a dungeon...to get an even better sense for the desperate danger of engaging in that environment just from the time spent in it.  A couple times.  Maybe.

Not for me. I tried an old fashion dungeon crawl a while back as a sort of 'way-back machine' for my group- so boring, we didn't even make it through the first sesson.

Running out of light and dying from hunger or the cold would not improve that experience. Unless we actually ran out of light and died from hunger or the cold in the real world, that would make it just a bit better.

Quote from: Benoist;649311Isn't that what pretty much all these variants have been over the years? /sarcasm

Don't that have 4e for that?